Allegro.cc - Online Community

Allegro.cc Forums » Off-Topic Ordeals » [Philosophy] Observer-Observation Connection

This thread is locked; no one can reply to it. rss feed Print
 1   2   3 
[Philosophy] Observer-Observation Connection
weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
avatar

I actually spent 10[1] seconds or so looking at her boobs, to check whether the 'oddity' wasn't cleverly hidden on her boobs, with a Godzilla as a distraction. ;D Good example of the expectancy effect :p

Derezo said:

I've read that two important parts of setting a goal are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria
I learned that in super dweeb class. One of my concerns is that maybe a normally motivated person, doesn't need to think about motivation; and that the only reason we[2] are interested in motivating others, is because we want to be motivated ourselves.

Quote:

Example:

I'm very skeptical about the influence of 'rational thought'.

weapon_S said:

I would translate that to: Every thought/emotion/observation can lead[1] into (any) action. But even the explicit will to do something can also lead/be linked to irrelevant/existing activity/thoughts.

For example: somebody who runs the red light, might be driven by: a fear for her/his work, or hate of the friend (s)he had just an argument with, or puppies (probably, not consciously). Conversely somebody who is involved with saving the environment, might be someone who: is an eco-terrorist, or someone who works as a volunteer for WWF, or someone who sits all day in front of the TV (although you wouldn't say this person is very much 'involved with the environment'). Make sense?

References

  1. :-[ Liar!
  2. I try to speak for myself. However I cannot shake this fear that you are similar
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Have to post. Will have to edit.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

type568 said:

Have to post. Will have to edit.

It works for StackOverflow...

“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

I feel really ashamed for the delay. Nevertheless:

@Derezo

>The SC2 example is a very atypical career choice, like NFL Quarterback. He would be best to get advice regarding it from other professional players, I imagine... but I really don't know how the professional gaming industry works.

My point was that the hesitations, and the "I can't" aren't always pure lack of will, sometimes you really perhaps can't. And if the gamble is worth it.. That's where one has to decide. It's not really something you can encourage a person, you can only encourage him to gather up & process info regarding his decision, but not inspire him to go for it or not(unless you think you know the topic well..).

>You can only support them in accomplishing their goals, you can't really make them do it. They have to want to

That's a very complex statement.. Sometimes they DO want the result, but can't gather up to do what it takes, or are scared to fail, or it's too much effort for them, etc', etc'.. Sometimes if they get the kick, do it- they're grateful afterwards. I've had it, I do remember specific case when I gave the kick, and I think I was grateful few times to get it as well.. Although not sure(could've been long time ago, now ego is grown up too large).

about goals

Not sure if "PRO SC2 career" is a goal, although getting a sponsor & a popular stream- perhaps is. As well as advancing in tournaments, and winning money.. But specific goals are perhaps a good kick towards progress, you can't always know what's the right goal.. Kind of issue. Especially bad with speculative trading. Worked terrible for me, as failing to comply with them due to errors dragged more errors and unbalanced my mental state.

About #3 example in the OP thread.. Let's say that's the goal, and.. If I fail to achieve it, I'm frustrated. And nothing I can do about it. And if I do achieve it.. Erm, how does it help me? If I had it or not had it.. It doesn't matter.

>Visualize your goals and expectations and keep them on your mind as you work towards it. I find that when I have a very good vision of what it is that I want, the answers just come and things start popping up surrounding my goals.

Well, yes. Though issue is that A) you need to know what you do want B) you need to think of how to get it and C) you gotta do what it takes.
Sometimes all three are god damn hard. Usually I think first one is the most difficult :-/

@Vanneto

You're either a Gay, or a very satisfied man :-\

@Weaponess

>Visualize your goals and expectations and keep them on your mind as you work towards it. I find that when I have a very good vision of what it is that I want, the answers just come and things start popping up surrounding my goals.

To a degree, but not always.. Sometimes we just care about the other person. Feel responsibility.

>I'm very skeptical about the influence of 'rational thought'.

We do what we want to do, we think about what we want to think. But there are things we can't miss, which can prevent us from doing what is not rational. I can imagine someone rushing to his job while being late, and crossing a road without looking. But I can't really see them running in front of a bus that won't stop. I think that is because some rationality remains, even if we rush to work.

>For example: somebody who runs the

About counter-example does introduce place for rational thought..
I've that suspect we're lacking definitions & terms again.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

type568 said:

My point was that the hesitations, and the "I can't" aren't always pure lack of will, sometimes you really perhaps can't.

And that was my thinking on the situation of NFL quarterback and professional gamer. I mean, I can't become an NFL player. I simply can't, and I know that I can't. It's obvious that I can't, but it's not a question that has ever appeared outside of this discussion and it has a simple answer. Professional Gaming is such a tiny industry, especially being as specific as SC2, that it should be obvious whether you can do it or not and thus not be a question.

The "I can't" discussion was more appropriate for the losing weight scenario, or generally something with a metric, rather than obtaining intangible things like talents or abilities. A limbless man can't become a boxer, no matter how much he tries. I would hope that he wouldn't dream about it, either.

I'm not saying that "I won't" are always irrational. You shouldn't throw morality out the window. However, I would say that most situations you can and should encourage people with require an elimination of I won'ts. In other words, people you need to encourage are inherently lazy ;D I know from experience!

I think we're pretty well on the same page.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
avatar

type568 said:

To a degree, but not always.. Sometimes we just care about the other person. Feel responsibility.

I think it refers to:

weapon_S said:

One of my concerns is that maybe a normally motivated person, doesn't need to think about motivation; and that the only reason we[2] are interested in motivating others, is because we want to be motivated ourselves.

By "we" I don't mean: humankind when communicating; I mean: us here discussing it.

Derezo said:

A limbless man can't become a boxer, no matter how much he tries. I would hope that he wouldn't dream about it, either.

I'm not saying that "I won't" are always irrational. You shouldn't throw morality out the window. However, I would say that most situations you can and should encourage people with require an elimination of I won'ts.

What about the I must's? Favourable or not? What about somebody who is hunting the little green men who certainly steal his/her vitamins? Can't the limbless man dream about being a boxer? Couldn't that be a motivation for him to succeed in other things?

I think the keyword is 'rationality'. I believe somebody can be motivated without reason (rationality), or reasons (goals). Of course, all actions can be interpreted as having some reason or following some rules. I believe that reason and reasons aren't the origin of 'motivation' however; by a process of mutual influence, reason and motivation can be drawn closer to each other. (I think this is an important principle of science.)

If somebody molests a child, a common reaction/story would be to say:"that person didn't have any (good) reason to do that". Surely the molester must have had some motivation however; whether you interpret that as a reason is something else. Would you encourage someone to go hunt the aforementioned green men? You might say it is a delusion; and irrational. In the internal rational process of that person, it might make very much sense to think there are green men, and that those green men steal their vitamins, and therefor must be hunted down. It is in what I would call the social rational consensus that it becomes irrational.
'Reason' and 'rationality' are becoming synonymous with 'good'. Have you never felt like shit after doing 'the rational thing'? Acting in accordance to the social rational consensus might get you positive social feedback however. This feedback is most effective if the subject can relate this feedback to present thoughts/emotions, and not to other 'existing things'[1].
I don't think you can decide for another person what is good for them, or will make them happy. You can try to notice the things someone tries and/or accomplishes, or make 'the world'[2] a bit of a less mean and unsurmountable thing for that person.
And maybe try to be considerate of what your remarks will mean to that person, and what things that person holds for certain at that moment.[3][4]

References

  1. E.g. A notion of existing social position: "I bet the teacher says that to all the students" or "this is just something someone in my position does". E.g. A notion of how life works: "[the laws of chance say] any moron would succeed at one point or another"
  2. The aforementioned 'existing things' (Things somebody holds for certain are bad ;D )
  3. Idem dito
  4. I thought up a part of this only today... feedback appreciated.
Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

Hmm, "I must" is something that I've never paid much attention to. I've never really thought much about that until now, and I have come to the conclusion that "I must" is a keeper. It shall replace "I gotta". I gotta is such a bad meme, it's almost as bad as "I can't believe it!" and "geez". :-/

weapon_S said:

Can't the limbless man dream about being a boxer? Couldn't that be a motivation for him to succeed in other things?

Sure and perhaps. Maybe my comment on dreaming about it needed an emoticon ;)

Rationality branches this into a new direction. I do think that reason and motivation are closely related, but I think that desire is even closer, easier to work with, and is less subjective. The reason I say it is less subjective is because everyone really wants the same thing, but everyone has different reasons. What we all ultimately want is feelings. A lot of our actions are extrapolated from a desire for feelings.

{"name":"370_Feelings-Wheel-Color.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/2\/e2cbb6f5981d13c4feb5a83998e7cc96.jpg","w":370,"h":370,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/2\/e2cbb6f5981d13c4feb5a83998e7cc96"}370_Feelings-Wheel-Color.jpg

We want to experience lots of the good ones and none of the bad ones. I propose that the ultimate problem with motivation occurs when we continually fail to do the right things to produce the feeling that we want. A continued failure to sustain success snowballs, and we fall into a trap as we begin experiencing more of the bad ones, further sinking us into a gloomy pit of despair. I think that this is especially true of "thinking" type of people because they are more likely to become disconnected with their feelings.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
avatar

Derezo said:

Hmm, "I must" is something that I've never paid much attention to. I've never really thought much about that until now, and I have come to the conclusion that "I must" is a keeper. It shall replace "I gotta". I gotta is such a bad meme, it's almost as bad as "I can't believe it!" and "geez".

I think you've misunderstood me, but I'm happy with your interpretation ;D
Most of your post I agree with. But maybe you could explain how subjectivity describes the relationship between reason and desire, and perhaps that big 'ol hippy circle ;) What is in the center and what is on the outside? Can you go around it? What does that signify? Etc.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

I had started to write about "I must" and my mind just went on a tangent with it. The I must pattern doesn't cross through my mind very often, and instead I have an "I gotta" that comes through. Pesky bugger. >:(

Rationality is subjective because people value different things in different ways. Think of the feeling you would get from finding $100. How would an 8 year old girl feel about it? A homeless man who's been eating nothing but stale donuts for the last 3 days? A single mom? Would Willy Gates even bend over and pick it up?

They all feel different feelings, but it's not because they don't have access to the same feelings, but because they all rationalize it differently. Some people would search for the owner and get feelings from that. Some people would tweet about it and get different feelings again.

As for the hippy circle, I came across an "emotion wheel" a while back in one of my Wikipedia journey's and thought of it as I was writing that. I just grabbed one that stuck out in a google image search.
Basically the idea is that there are the "core emotions" in the centre, and as you move out from the circle they become more complex forms. Should be fairly trivial to separate the bad ones from the good ones ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

@Derezo

What is this circle? Would you link me to some wiki article?

Append:
I've to say much more.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

There's a wiki link to Plutchik's Wheel of Emotions in my last post, but it should really be self explanatory. The wheel is in no way complete, though.

There are many variations

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

@Derezo, Weaponess

The topic is getting damn hard to follow. And for some reason, although I know I want to follow it, I'm.. Getting insanely delayed with it, for no reason. I think asking for forgiveness is actually relevant here.

>I think the keyword is 'rationality'. I believe somebody can be motivated without reason (rationality), or reasons (goals). Of course, all actions can be interpreted as having some reason or following some rules. I believe that reason and reasons aren't the origin of 'motivation' however; by a process of mutual influence, reason and motivation can be drawn closer to each other.

Agreed, there isn't necessarily a strict border between reason and motivation. There maybe reason to achieve something that motivates us, there maybe just blind lust to do it, that "it" can be momentary imminent thing, or a distant goal towards which we go following our reason which assures us we want it...

To a degree, above paragraph offers a reformulation to the renaming "big question" of the thread:

Assuming there is a distant goal we want, how to motivate ourselves(or others) to be following it? How to transform distant, general goal which can't be achieved here and now in to imminent motivation, to make one more small step towards it?

>'Reason' and 'rationality' are becoming synonymous with 'good'.

Yes they are. And the less they're affected with imminent short term wish, the "better" the reasoning is.

>There's a wiki link to Plutchik's Wheel of Emotions in my last post, but it should really be self explanatory. The wheel is in no way complete, though.

Thanks, found some readable stuff.. Curious, but doesn't look too scientific(what I found).

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

type568 said:

How to transform distant, general goal which can't be achieved here and now in to imminent motivation, to make one more small step towards it?

Break it down into smaller, bite sized pieces.

How do you eat an Elephant?
Simple. One bite at a time.

This will facilitate motivation, but it still wont create it. Motivation must come from within. You must want to do the activity.

Quote:

Curious, but doesn't look too scientific

Science is more of a thinking discipline, which is less about feeling ;)
The study of feelings is ultimately a branch of psychology in science, though. However, it's much more difficult to perform experiments on such things and fully apply the scientific method.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
avatar

type568 said:

How to transform distant, general goal which can't be achieved here and now in to imminent motivation, to make one more small step towards it?

Just had the thought: 'being motivated' might be the opposite of 'letting go', 'being done with it', 'leaving it behind you'. Something that motivates you can be described as 'haunting' you like a irrational obsession.

The opening posts with several cases of working and not working, is a good start IMHO. Ideally we should make some case studies actually... (If we could find the motivation :P )

As for the emotional disk, utter crap in my opinion. Several versions? What does that tell? It doesn't open up any new thoughts in my case.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

weapon_S said:

As for the emotional disk, utter crap in my opinion.

Then don't focus on the graphic. What I said isn't written on the wheel, I just didn't want to write out a bunch of feelings and their opposites.

What I said was that feelings are the ultimate motivators. Actions are motivated by, and ultimately become, feelings. Motivation is not driven by thoughts that are observed. You feel motivation. You don't think motivation.

"I think very motivated today!" ;D

When you feel bored, you seek excitement.
When you feel lonely, you seek acceptance.
When hungry you eat and feel satisfied.

My proposal was that people have trouble with motivation when their thoughts, which ultimately become actions, don't line up with feelings. They suddenly don't know what they want, because there is a disconnection there. They stop thinking in ways that grant them the feelings they want and begin thinking in other ways that are less fulfilling. They lose sight of their motivation.

Quote:

Several versions? What does that tell?

It tells that there are varying applications for it. The wheel is just a graphic that depicts select feelings (common ones in this case) in an organized way that shows there are both enjoyable feelings and detrimental feelings.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
avatar

If your body was a business, thought would be like micro-management and emotions would be like macro-management. If you primarily live your life with emotions, then you are prone to error on the details. If you over-think things all the time you tend to lose scope of priorities.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

An excellent analogy.

... clearly I have done some over-thinking! ;D

:-/

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

A good sense of judgement is the arbitrator.

“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
avatar

:-/ Let's not get in a discussion about emotions.

Derezo said:

What I said was that feelings are the ultimate motivators. Actions are motivated by, and ultimately become, feelings.

Or thoughts... which should make you wonder what's the difference. :-/ Let's not get in a discussion about emotions.
I'm not happy with the statement "your motivation is influenced by your emotions; and emotions are a mystery" as a conclusion.
Today I sketched an insane circle[1] diagram of emotions.[2] Giving some thoughts about motivation.
Circle doesn't really translate to flat text (but I'll try). !@$# I tried.

References

  1. coincidence
  2. Based on an even more deranged theory of observation. Funny that those two things are connected in this thread.
Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

weapon_S said:

I'm not happy with the statement "your motivation is influenced by your emotions; and emotions are a mystery" as a conclusion.

I'm not happy with that statement either!
Emotions are no mystery. You're thinking of women ;D

Quote:

Or thoughts... which should make you wonder what's the difference. :-/

Maybe I've been a little too Zen-like ;)
The difference between a thought and a feeling is pretty clear. Feelings are felt in your body, thoughts are not. Thoughts just pass by and require motivation to do anything about them.

That's why I used the word emotion much less than the word feeling. Hunger is not an emotion, but it is a feeling, and it is certainly a motivator.

Emotions are feelings, and are felt in your body, but feelings are not necessarily emotions.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

@Everyone :P
Since the order is mixed dramatically..

Derezo said:

Break it down into smaller, bite sized pieces.

How do you eat an Elephant?
Simple. One bite at a time.

This will facilitate motivation, but it still wont create it. Motivation must come from within. You must want to do the activity.

Very nice.. It's kind of obvious, but I somehow didn't think about it. Yes, indeed: when you have a lot of small easily achievable goals(leading you to some big achievement)you can get constant "remotivation" by accomplishing small goals and thus seeing your progress towards the big achievement.

As of it "not creating" motivation- well, it "boosts" it. Of course you have to really "want" that final achievement, but that's the point we've started from: one wants something, but is unable to follow the way to get it.

weapon_S said:

Just had the thought: 'being motivated' might be the opposite of 'letting go', 'being done with it', 'leaving it behind you'. Something that motivates you can be described as 'haunting' you like a irrational obsession.

Uh? Clarify :-X

Derezo said:

What I said was that feelings are the ultimate motivators. Actions are motivated by, and ultimately become, feelings. Motivation is not driven by thoughts that are observed. You feel motivation. You don't think motivation.

Thoughts are also actions.. Since thoughts in many cases summon feelings(doesn't really work in case of hunger, but sure does in case of say.. Anxiety, or envy..)- they do create feelings as well.

If your body was a business, thought would be like micro-management and emotions would be like macro-management. If you primarily live your life with emotions, then you are prone to error on the details. If you over-think things all the time you tend to lose scope of priorities.

I disagree, both can be both. And all our actions are induced by both.
.....
......
....... (yes I decided not to delete the above said)

I like the analogy, I mostly agree with it after some thinking. However, no emotion is possible without the processing by thoughts, hence thoughts very much affect our emotions. And emotions of course affect our thoughts. But still, I'm not sure why can't emotions make us do little things e.g.buy that ice-cream, flirt with that chick(emotions may make us do this stuff). & so our macro decisions, after being affected by a chain of emotionally influenced processing with thoughts are taken to some kind of its final "stage", which is enough for us to decide to make that decision(in other macro decisions are only taken after emotionally affected thinking).
I'm not sure if I can say that emotions have made us make this or that decision..

>Let's not get in a discussion about emotions.

I'm not sure it's possible to avoid in a conversation about motivation.. :-|

>Emotions are no mystery. You're thinking of women

So true about me, during latest months :(

***

So.. I'm a bit surprised, but the surprise is rather good.
We did advance at least somewhere:

I order to keep ourselves motivated in achievement of a goal we have to split the goal to smaller goals, accomplishment of which will keep us motivated(works "towards others" the same way I guess..).

There have to be other things as well though.. :)

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

type568 said:

However, no emotion is possible without the processing by thoughts, hence thoughts very much affect our emotions.

I'm not sure I agree, but after writing a paragraph about it I realized it began to venture off into the mind-body problem. ;D

Quote:

Thoughts are also actions.

Extremely passive, internal actions. :)
I was referring to actions in the sense of creating change in the external world. You can sit around and think about something until the cows come home, but the only thing that will be different is your thoughts. That is, until you actually do something about it .

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
avatar

type568 said:

Very nice.. It's kind of obvious, but I somehow didn't think about it. Yes, indeed: when you have a lot of small easily achievable goals(leading you to some big achievement)you can get constant "remotivation" by accomplishing small goals and thus seeing your progress towards the big achievement.

This also implies a greater somewhat unattainable goal is necessary. I think people usually refer to those as "dreams" ;D

Quote:

Uh? Clarify

Did you ever have a thought you knew was not real? (Maybe under influence, tired, having a fever induced delirium.) Did you ever catch yourself doing something you knew wasn't fruitful, or weird to begin with? (Obsessive maybe even.) Did you ever have a very strong emotion, but you had to act reasonable for a moment? I was talking about the way you move your thoughts away from that. That way might be the same thing that makes you give up on other things. From one point of view all your actions are just obsessions based on deliriums.[1]

Derezo said:

I'm not sure I agree, but after writing a paragraph about it I realized it began to venture off into the mind-body problem

I guess I'm a monoist. This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to avoid.[2] What are emotions? What are thoughts? What kind of emotions and thoughts are there?
But I agree thoughts don't shape our emotions, rather they shape the way communicate and distinguish our emotions... Yeah, let's get some ontological and structuralist discussion in here as well :P It is possible to 'not know what you want'. But I rather would translate that to: 'unable to express your desire, and unfamiliar with methods to satisfy those desires'. (I mean: what is 'knowledge' ::) )

Because I have too much spare time on my hands, I present to you my Emotional Disk of Skewed Perspective.[3]
{"name":"604215","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/1\/318d93ef75ecdba54220eb0ead03b62e.png","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/1\/318d93ef75ecdba54220eb0ead03b62e"}604215

Legend:[4]

Bliss describes a satisfied apathy, rather than euphoria (happiness).
Regret describes a passive and reflective state.
Urgency describes an active extrovert state.
Frustration perhaps the thing that you get if you take everything else away. "Life force"?

(Only listing 'emotions' that I think need clarification)
Awareness the sense of responsibility, the sense things get/are real.
Determination the ruthless drive to change things. "Anger"?
Despair the ruthless drive to create things. ("Something! Anything!")

Explanation:

So the blue things are 'states' and the arrowy things are 'emotions', that I suspect are only movements between states. This implies you can be in a state of 'Bliss', but you can't be in a state of 'happy'. So if you want to be 'happy' you'll have move from a state of 'urgency' and bliss; and at least move via 'awareness', to repeat this. Also implies emotions moving towards or outwards from a single state are weak/unlikely, but moving the whole circle is possible. Only in a state of urgency do we act. What is in a state of urgency? Single thoughts? Our mind as a whole? I don't know...

Being based on my Explanation of All Communication Comprehension of Skewed Perspective, I'm hoping to improve both. But, if this can give this discussion a boost, I'm happy.

References

  1. Thinking about it, it's not a real new thought at all. For as long as I can remember thinking about rationality, I've believed most rationality is merely a social constructed label slapped on inherently beastly/innocent actions. Of course I didn't have such difficult words to describe it.
  2. I love this kind of discussion ;D
  3. Yes, I'm attempting to be funny :P But the diagram is serious
  4. It's based on my Explanation of All Communication and Comprehension of Skewed Perspective. So it might not contain the emotions one would usually think of... I really need to improve it.
Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

weapon_S said:

This also implies a greater somewhat unattainable goal is necessary.

I don't think unattainable is correct. That's too subjective. Breaking a large goal down, such as 'become a journalist', isn't because the goal is unattainable, but rather that the goal is more involved than, say, 'brush my teeth in the morning'.

If you goal is to brush your teeth every morning, there really aren't any steps to it after you have all of the provisions necessary. You just need to have the motivation to actually do it.
If you're trying to become a journalist, you're going to have to do some research into college or university programs, potential employers, you'll need to attend that schooling, you'll have to write a resume, apply for jobs, practice and hone your skills, among other things I'm sure. The steps to getting the necessary 'provisions' aren't as simple as 'enter the bathroom'.

Quote:

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to avoid.

Haha, I love these type of discussions, but I do find that the human love for 'opinion' often gets in the way when discussing the objective nature of subjective experience. After all, the God did it all, right? ;D
I am a monoist in a scientific sense. I've studied the brain in simple ways by watching a huge series of neuroscience lectures (which was largely sparked by a brief period of marijuana use). Seems pretty solid that way. Biological machines. Mechanical animals.

However, in a philosophical sense, I stray away from the idea of monoist and do start to think that it is possible everything is the way that it is because of a sort of 'underlying natural form' that is separate from the things. In some ways I agree with the way Plato put it, that things have "essences". Qualia. The colour Red is and always was, and I cannot explain the experience of it.

I sometimes feel that this is the true nature of evolution. Not that natural selection isn't a real thing, but that evolution is a natural progression towards achieving a pre-existing expression of natural form rather than being simply a series of 'accidents' with no purpose. Sort of throws free will out the window, but whatever. Red plus Blue is always Purple. It just gets more complicated than that ;)

Quote:

What is in a state of urgency? Single thoughts? Our mind as a whole?

Perhaps urgency is the state of "now"? The direct, moment-by-moment experience of consciousness which is the only place we can truly affect the outside world. Dreaming up the future doesn't create it, it requires action in the present moment to begin progression towards that dream. Regretting the past, or just dwelling on it, likewise has no external effect. It is only in the present moment that we do anything, and it is only in the present moment than we can.

At least, that's the way it appears to me :P

Existence sucks, and it's so damn persistent!! >:(

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
avatar

Derezo said:

I don't think unattainable is correct. That's too subjective. Breaking a large goal down, such as 'become a journalist', isn't because the goal is unattainable, but rather that the goal is more involved than, say, 'brush my teeth in the morning'.

A better word would be: "/not readily available goal/", I agree. But perhaps the 'brushing my teeth' is part of a 'staying clean' or 'having good teeth forever', both of which can't really be observed.

Quote:

Perhaps urgency is the state of "now"?

I'd call that 'awareness' and The Circle says that you can stay happy thinking that it is everything.
I figured out for myself what 'is moving' along the circle:

And of course I already knew, because it was the way I constructed the thing. It are the observational categories[1] which are underlying that are the key. As your observations (the world) shifts, one category become more prominent than others. For instance, I was using a key I lend to open a bicycle lock. It didn't work. There was another bicycle, that might be the right one. The key again fitted, but didn't work. I was already in a state of Regret[2], because there was something I had to do. But the undeniable presence of the bicycles, the locks and the key, which I was more and more focusing on, shifted my observation to Urgency.[3] This caused a desperate action where I once more tried the key in both locks.
Consider the hypothetical case where I become aware of a butterfly. Bliss to Urgency. If I just let it flutter off in to the world, it will likely make me happy.
Urgency to Bliss. But if I analyze the butterfly, it will make me 'nostalgic'. Urgency to Regret. This makes me think Fear is misplaced in the diagram.
While studying physics, which I consider the most profound move from /Determinism[4] to Finality, I was at one point also overwhelmed by despair and a sort of nostalgic feeling. I have lots of thinking/feeling to on/because of the diagram.
And this still leaves the question how some things become more prominent/noticed than others in your observation.

I think I'm closer to solving the motivation problem by also assuming happiness is desirable.[5]
Man up: cut the Happiness you are getting from present things, in order to make the new Happiness more desirable in contrast. Crush the notion you have you can ever get that Happiness back. (With Sadness or Awareness or Fear[6]. Not Determination at all.)
Believe: you need a out-of-reach goal, that isn't falsified/crushed; and it needs to relate to the results you get. (That doesn't follow from Teh Circle.)
This took longer to write than I thought. I have a vague notion of how silly this all sounds.

References

  1. They are not Bliss, Regret and Urgency; Those are feelings I associated with them. In English I'd call these categories Mystery, Determinism and Finality respectively.
  2. Or rather Determinism
  3. Or rather Finality
  4. Read reference #
  5. Am I out of touch with reality or what?
  6. I already mentioned I'm doubting about this one
 1   2   3 


Go to: