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Windows 7
BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Ron Novy said:

Apple tends not to notify people of updates.

Since when? Software update always pops up for me when there are updates.

As far as Safari and iTunes, does it really bother you that much? Sure its crappy how they try to push it on everyone's machine, but at least its not malicious.

Alianix
Member #10,518
December 2008
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With knowing close to nothing about Windows 7 some of you will hate me for stating this but there are several things fundamentally wrong with Windows 7. I'm assuming it's still a ripoff, I'm assuming it's still not "free" software, it's still protected by ridiculous copyright laws, it's still "illegal" to modify it, it's still has those nagging and nasty advertising gimmicks, it's still using underhanded manouvers to hold back other OS's like Linux, in one word - no matter how good it looks or even works which I really doubt - it STILL sucks balls !

With that being said I'd like to try it...someday...maybe ;D

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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Alianix said:

With knowing close to nothing about Windows 7 some of you will hate me for stating this but there are several things fundamentally wrong with Windows 7. I'm assuming it's still a ripoff, I'm assuming it's still not "free" software, it's still protected by ridiculous copyright laws, it's still "illegal" to modify it, it's still has those nagging and nasty advertising gimmicks, it's still using underhanded manouvers to hold back other OS's like Linux, in one word - no matter how good it looks or even works which I really doubt - it STILL sucks balls !

With that being said I'd like to try it...someday...maybe

Yeah. Damn those commercial software developers! They should all rot in hell for the damage they have caused. It should be illegal to even buy software at all.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Quote:

users can easily be trained to used by windows

FTFY

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Ron Novy said:

Apple tends not to notify people of updates... It's a marketing thing. If it notified you that there was an update it would be admitting to you that it is flawed. That is something that Apple would never do.

They always notify me. The Software Updater appears, which is my first clue...

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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How would you know if they always notify you? Isn't that a bit like a teacher asking any student who is missing to raise his hand? :o

Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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BAF said:

As far as Safari and iTunes, does it really bother you that much? Sure its crappy how they try to push it on everyone's machine, but at least its not malicious.

It's not just the fact that they push it onto computers it's that since I'm responsible for maintaining a lot of these computers I get a lot of shit when it re-appears mysteriously when it is not supposed to be there...

I also get more complaints from Mac users about Windows computers they never use then from the people actually using the Windows computers... But I also don't get complaints about Macs unless there is a file format that they can't figure out...

They always notify me. The Software Updater appears, which is my first clue...

That's what they want you to know about :P

You never really hear about those really serious bug fixes unless it becomes common. It's not like the huge bug that crashes your hard drive when you select View Desktop as List bug they had on the original colorful iMac. All you had to do to crash the drive was close all windows in finder and select the proper menu item to view the desktop as list or details or something and it locked up and could not boot up again... I see nothing about it now on the internet anywhere but I remember after discovering that little bug on the iMac computers at my school the computers were devastated and many of them were shipped back when they couldn't figure out what was wrong. If I had kept my mouth shut around the other kids it probably would not have been so bad. But even though I made it clear what was happening no one ever actually fixed the real problem. They just blamed it on the kids "doing something wrong" or "malicious" and the problem was never fixed. The computers just had the OS re-installed every time it happened which became less often as time went on and the kids got bored with it... The whole thing kind of pissed me off because everybody I warned about the problem kind of had the impression that the computers were not flawed and instead blamed the kids (including Apple). All of that was a long time ago though... :-/

The whole Apple sucks thing just became that rant that I carried with me everywhere after that just because no one could admit a serious flaw...

But yeah Windows 7 \o/ Woo. New OS means new bugs... and some old ones :P

----
Oh... Bieber! I thought everyone was chanting Beaver... Now it doesn't make any sense at all. :-/

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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How would you know if they always notify you? Isn't that a bit like a teacher asking any student who is missing to raise his hand?

Not so much, since absent students physically can't raise their hands. But respecting the "a bit like" qualification, it's more like a teacher asking any student who is missing to raise his hand, while simultaneously knowing that there's a million websites that would relish in being able to report it if any students weren't present and were not raising their hands and students not raising their hands had measurable effects in a bunch of other places.

Ron Novy said:

You never really hear about those really serious bug fixes unless it becomes common. It's not like the huge bug that crashes your hard drive when you select View Desktop as List bug they had on the original colorful iMac. All you had to do to crash the drive was close all windows in finder and select the proper menu item to view the desktop as list or details or something and it locked up and could not boot up again... I see nothing about it now on the internet anywhere but I remember after discovering that little bug on the iMac computers at my school the computers were devastated and many of them were shipped back when they couldn't figure out what was wrong. [...]

In fact it's nothing like that. Since OS 9 and OS X share not a single line of code, the updating mechanisms are not at all related. You're also not comparing like for like — you're comparing the level of community coverage of a decrepit operating system sold by a company with almost no customers to the level of community coverage of a widely (note: NOT universally) admired operating system sold by a company that has increased its sales at least tenfold since transitioning.

And I'm not even sure why you arguing that in the past Apple have failed to correct bugs is at all relevant to whether they notify people when they do push software updates. In fact, it would seem to be closer to my original charge that they have a habit of ignoring security threats.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Ron Novy said:

This computer is supposed to remain clean with minimal essential apps and QuickTime is just one of them.

Why?

Alianix said:

With knowing close to nothing about Windows 7 some of you will hate me for stating this but there are several things fundamentally wrong with Windows 7. I'm assuming it's still a ripoff, I'm assuming it's still not "free" software, it's still protected by ridiculous copyright laws, it's still "illegal" to modify it, it's still has those nagging and nasty advertising gimmicks, it's still using underhanded manouvers to hold back other OS's like Linux, in one word - no matter how good it looks or even works which I really doubt - it STILL sucks balls !

Microsoft needs to make money with this OS, just like they do with their other products (yes, IE too, although there is no direct revenue).

The fact that Linux exists doesn't automatically mean all other OSes are morally or legally obliged to be like it.

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Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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Quote:

Why?

The owners own paranoia...

Honestly I have nothing against Apple and wouldn't mind working for them... It's just Mac's and I have a history... So Thomas Harte, it's my baggage and I'll bitch if I want to :P

----
Oh... Bieber! I thought everyone was chanting Beaver... Now it doesn't make any sense at all. :-/

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Microsoft needs to make money with this OS, just like they do with their other products

My understanding is that they've still yet to make a profit on the XBoxes. At a guess, the plan was to push the first out to establish their credentials, then transition very quickly to the second and wrongfoot Sony, winning the entire market. I guess Nintendo and the numerous faulty iterations of XBox have made that more difficult than expected. They also seem to keep pushing out Zunes, though the rumourmill has it that the iPod Touch clone Zune that's due this year is a last-ditch attempt at a standalone player, all the Zune staff having already been moved to other departments.

Most of the things they've cancelled since the recession hit (at least Money, Flight Simulator, Encarta, OneCare and Equipt) haven't been particularly profitable, but they keep pouring money into their internet sinkhole projects, so positioning must count for something...

EDIT:

Ron Novy said:

Honestly I have nothing against Apple and wouldn't mind working for them... It's just Mac's and I have a history... So Thomas Harte, it's my baggage and I'll if I want to

Work for Apple? Doesn't sound like fun to me. I've had nothing but highly positive interactions with Apple since becoming an iPhone person, but I tend to show at least a little humility during job interviews, so I'd be straight out the door. Though I guess maybe I could just set up a projector and incorporate a 30 minute bit on how I once implemented copy and paste, and here's a lengthy demonstration of how copy and paste works in case anybody in the room hasn't used a computer since 1980.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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No, I mean, why is QuickTime essential? Do your users have to play some obscure video formats that QuickTime can play but VLC Player cannot?

EDIT:
Thomas: My point is that they are a commercial company, and while they certainly have enough assets to back a few projects that carry a higher risk of not being profitable, they still have to make money with something. And Windows, being their flagship, is certainly one of those things, if only because of the huge target audience.

---
Me make music: Triofobie
---
"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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Yes... It was just so they could watch certain videos that Media player didn't support... I'm not sure if it supports them now, but I think was necessary for some .mov or .mp4 video file or some kind of streaming video service they were signed up for...

----
Oh... Bieber! I thought everyone was chanting Beaver... Now it doesn't make any sense at all. :-/

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Blah blah, back to the topic, blah...

Windows 7 preordering has begun today for the UK, France, and Germany. Microsoft's own store seems to have fallen down under the traffic, but Amazon are offering the same prices. As stated before, while Microsoft are trying to make a point about Internet Explorer, the Europe-only complete 'E' versions are available for the same price as the rest of the world pays for upgrade copies. And during the time-and-quantity limited preorder period, that price is substantially reduced.

Me? I've preordered Professional (E).

ixilom
Member #7,167
April 2006
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Didn't bother to read all the posts as the thread has probably derailed a couple of times by now.

My question is, is there anything that actually is better than in Vista (besides speed on lower end computers) ?

[Fake edit]
Could be faster on my somewhat high end PC, but I really can't justify an upgrade just because of that since I think Vista runs smoothly as it is.

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Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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I read the BBC article today on W7 and it says you need a clean install. I have the pre-release candidate and that allows you to install over vista happily. I'd hate to have to reinstall everything come the time when it runs out. Anyone know if this is true?

Neil.
MAME Cabinet Blog / AXL LIBRARY (a games framework) / AXL Documentation and Tutorial

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Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Per Wikipedia:

Quote:

Unlike its predecessor, which introduced a large number of new features, Windows 7 is intended to be a more focused, incremental upgrade to the Windows line, with the goal of being fully compatible with applications and hardware with which Windows Vista is already compatible

And further goes on to explain that beyond the performance fixes you mention, the most obvious difference is the new taskbar and a bunch of other less-obvious additions include improvements to or implementations of multitouch gesture support, handwriting and speech recognition, 'libraries' as a new file organisation tool (a bit like search folders, but with smarter backing store so that you can also save to them), a redesigned notification area and a bunch of minor window navigation improvements.

From my point of view, as a Mac user whose most recent version of Windows is Windows 2000, the relatively minor update to 7, the inclusion of XP compatibility mode (a copy of XP that runs in virtualisation and pipes window contents via RDC so that htey are composited normally in the native display), the cut-price sale and the self-imposed idea of the 'E' edition meaning that I don't even need a qualifying older version make it a smart time to update. Plus, I would like to try .NET, at least for the purposes of Silverlight 3 — those apps being deployable on Windows and Mac but developable in Windows only.

le_y_mistar
Member #8,251
January 2007
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i use windows, my company uses windows, my family uses windows, my girlfriend uses windows. windows just works well on the desktop and users can easily be trained to use windows. linux is for ubergeeks/neckbeards/virgins.

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I'm hell of an awesome guy :)

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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I read the BBC article today on W7 and it says you need a clean install. I have the pre-release candidate and that allows you to install over vista happily. I'd hate to have to reinstall everything come the time when it runs out. Anyone know if this is true?

Sounds like it might be a misfeature of the E version, based on this PC Pro blog. Since the ever-poorly informed BBC have decided to go with:

Quote:

Because of a recent European Commission anti-trust ruling, Windows 7's European version will not be integrated with Windows' Internet Explorer, meaning that a browser will have to be installed separately.

I suspect it's yet more Microsoft gurning.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Also true for Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is pretty easy. When I tried it out, everything worked straight out of the box with my hardware setup.

I imagine it's not so easy to get help when things go wrong however, at least for casual computer users. There's far less support sites for it, and those that are assume a far higher level of expertise than most Windows support sites.

EDIT: One thing I hope they definitely fix for Windows 7 is file sharing. I don't know what they did to it in Vista, but it sucks. I've been trying to set up a shared folder for the last 10 minutes, and it's just saying "This may take a few minutes." Setting up a similar folder on the XP machine takes less than a minute.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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LennyLen said:

.I imagine it's not so easy to get help when things go wrong however, at least for casual computer users. There's far less support sites for it, and those that are assume a far higher level of expertise than most Windows support sites.

I'm not so sure about that. Ubuntu even has its own forums (does ms? :o). Then theres places like linuxforums, linuxhelp, linuxquestions, etc.

Some solutions to problems might be beyond the average user though.

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Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

Also true for Ubuntu.

You didn't have to rise to it.

Don Freeman
Member #5,110
October 2004
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LennyLen said:

Ubuntu is pretty easy. When I tried it out, everything worked straight out of the box with my hardware setup.
I imagine it's not so easy to get help when things go wrong however, at least for casual computer users. There's far less support sites for it, and those that are assume a far higher level of expertise than most Windows support sites.

Should we also mention that it's FREE?! :P And any user can buy a version of Linux
that comes with a year of technical support. Maybe when they start pushing out $150 dollar computers because the don't have to pay $M the licensing fees, then users will start the push towards Linux. Walmart has a line of these computers...just not widely available yet.

Quote:

EDIT: One thing I hope they definitely fix for Windows 7 is file sharing. I don't know what they did to it in Vista, but it sucks. I've been trying to set up a shared folder for the last 10 minutes, and it's just saying "This may take a few minutes." Setting up a similar folder on the XP machine takes less than a minute.

It actually defaults to sharing your files if you set the connection to Home Network. Was a simple operation of opening My Network and finding the PC(s) that I wanted to get my files from...just worked for me.

My only real grip right now with Windows 7 seems to be that the disk access (only seems to be during the write operation) seems slower than in Vista and/or XP. When compiling something or creating a new file/folder it seems to take a little longer than normal. Maybe it has something to do with the locking mechanisms in the kernel, but I know it is slower than under Vista or XP. It might not even really be a disk access issues...it might be something with how it handles security in the background. At least it doesn't hound you to death with the this program needs your attention crap like Vista did...it's still there, but not NEAR as bad.

Oh...and I almost forgot. The stupid taskbar where program notification icons go...some programs do not always show up there (they are there but you must click the little up arrow to see them) even if you tell it to always show the program notifications for that program! >:( Finally got tired of that and just told it to always notify me.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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My only real grip right now with Windows 7 seems to be that the disk access (only seems to be during the write operation) seems slower than in Vista and/or XP

Let me guess, you're now using a terabyte drive, right? Vista chokes on my I: & J: drives when trying to display the contents of a folder (1TB drive vs. the 320GB drive C: is on)

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.



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