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RapeLay
Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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You implied it by saying that we choose an act of destruction over an act of creation, since in the context the phrase "act of destruction" referred to violence, and the phrase "act of creation" referred to rape.

If you look at my post, you'll see I made two initial assertions: video game violence is more often borne of survival than cruelty, and many cultures have an aversion to anything sexual.

My final argument was that a game based on rape crosses the threshold on both counts, being that it's an act of cruelty the player can't rationalize away, and a sexual one.

To think that I referred to rape as an act of creation is a failure not only of reading comprehension, but of common sense.

Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

Everet is basically right, rape isn't always an act of sex, its can be about control and anger and a lot of other things. Basically because there is always exceptions, and I am sure people have been raped over sexual urges.

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"c is much better than c++ if you don't need OOP simply because it's smaller and requires less load time." - alethiophile
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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Kibiz0r said:

The other half of this is that many cultures are more accepting of violence than of sexuality. Why we give preference to the act of destruction over the act of creation is anyone's guess.

This statement alone is fine. The problem is that, in the context of the previous few posts, the idea of sexuality was linked to the idea of rape, and thus was born the misunderstanding.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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jhuuskon said:

Rape is about inserting a (typically) penis into an unvoluntary vagina, the reasons for which are various.

So by your definition, what many priests have been accused of doing to young boys isn't rape because they lack a vagina? Or, if I was to take you outside, bend you over and shove a 5' length of 2x4 up your ass, that wouldn't be rape either?

Quote:

Rape being always or typically being an expression of control is feminist propaganda stemming from the politically active batshit crazy extreme feminists like Schyman and Marklund of Sweden.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many male psychologists also support this view.

Quote:

Practically nonexistant in mainstream pornography.

Try making that claim in Japan.

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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Yeah, I hear in Japan Dating Games (I think rape games are inclusive in that) aren't taboo but a genre.

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Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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I haven't read through the entire thread... But I just want to say that even in prison here in the states... Rapists, child molesters and even pedophiles are considered far worse than the murderers, multiple homicides, etc... In prison they are tortured by other inmates and even killed because even the other inmates despise them... Mobsters would even start rumors about inmates they wanted dead...

Oh how the village do protect there young.

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Oh... Bieber! I thought everyone was chanting Beaver... Now it doesn't make any sense at all. :-/

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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I found ReyBrujo's first post pretty convincing. I don't have anything important to add to it.

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weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
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I like it, especially if it's two chicks.

I think people beat you to this idea :-X and it amazes me
there's not a game about that. BTW I was thinking about a prison game at first :-X

I think that something is lost in the translation.

Wasn't the movie Lost in Translation the one with that scene with the prostitute... :D

The main difference with violence games is, I think, that the player is supposed to enjoy the act itself and fantasize about it.
Why I like violent games: take out the mark, outsmart the enemy, get the enemy (revenge maybe), visual action (Whoa his head flew off!).
I think there are some violent games that also expect the player to enjoy the act of killing itself. I don't like them. I think fighting games are becoming more about inflicting pain than all the things I mentioned I enjoy.
I don't consider inflicting pain "fun" (although I am a vengeful glutton).
I think the world would be a better place without (either of) those games. And they are, be it violence or sex, both a kind of porn. Would you want to abolish all porn? Should this game only be available as porn? Should really violent games move to a separate area/shop?
BTW I often get more frustrated with games than being an outlet.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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weapon_S said:

BTW I was thinking about a prison game at first :-X

... and they're naked, because their clothes have rotted off.

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ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Killing a bunch of people in a game like Halo or Half Life is one thing. If you go around killing innocent women and children in a town, that's different.

I doubt anyone who has played Grand Theft Auto hasn't killed at least one pedestrian for the fun of it.

Ron Novy said:

Rapists, child molesters and even pedophiles are considered far worse than the murderers, multiple homicides, etc...

That is hypocrisy. They think it is better to beat an old woman to death than raping. I cannot say one is better than the other (although as pointed out, you return from everything except death), but one cannot be worse than the other.

LennyLen said:

Why should the people and government of my country give a damn about what an American organization, such as the ESRB, thinks is suitable? NZ age laws are completely different from those in the USA.

You got it all wrong. Australia and NZ got the OFLC. If that organization finds the game suitable, why would your legislators have to ban it? Wouldn't that mean games that were banned before may have been allowed by them? And wouldn't that mean many games that were allowed would have been banned? Doesn't that basically disallow your rating organization?

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RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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ReyBrujo said:

You got it all wrong. Australia and NZ got the OFLC.

No, you have it wrong. Australia and NZ each have their own OFLC. And in both countries, the OFLC isn't an organization that makes suggestions, it is a government department with legal juristiction.

Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

In Australia the OFLC quite often ban movies, because the content is unacceptable by current moral standings, and then reclassified later when opinions have changed. I went and saw "I spit on your grave" when a private cinema did a showing when it was reclassified in 2007. It has graphic rape scenes which was the reason of the banning. I went to see it with a mate who was someone scared by it when he saw it on video when he was 12.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
"c is much better than c++ if you don't need OOP simply because it's smaller and requires less load time." - alethiophile
OMG my sides are hurting from laughing so hard... :D

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Duh, I know OFLC is individual in both countries, they just happen to have the same name in both. In the case of OFLC, they are worse than other organizations. They ban games like Manhunt but allow games like MadWorld or Grand Theft Auto to be distributed. There is nothing worse than an organization that lacks consistency.

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

I wasn't suggesting you didn't know the difference, but being from Australia, I can only give my experiences here. I can't speak for it in NZ so I specified Australia.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
"c is much better than c++ if you don't need OOP simply because it's smaller and requires less load time." - alethiophile
OMG my sides are hurting from laughing so hard... :D

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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ReyBrujo said:

They ban games like Manhunt but allow games like MadWorld or Grand Theft Auto to be distributed. There is nothing worse than an organization that lacks consistency.

I've never played any of the games in question, so I can't personally say whether I consider the ruling to be consistant.

The summing up of the ruling follows:

OFLC said:

the freedom of expression is outweighed by likelihood of injury to the public good that could result from this game's availability. The length of time it takes to complete the game, and the necessity to repeat the killings in ever more gory fashion on each level if one does not complete that level at first attempt, increases exposure to material that initially disturbs, but which must be accommodated, to complete the game. A player's power both to initiate violence and to control the level of violence is part of the process by which this accommodation is made. To succeed in this game, a player, regardless of age or maturity, must learn over an extended period of time to acquiesce in, tolerate, or even enjoy, the violence he or she inflicts.

Considering that it is the only game to ever be banned in this country, I doubt it was a decision they took lightly. The reason I made my earlier comment about being happy with the NZ censorship system is that very few things have actually been banned in this country. The biggest share of criticism the OFLC gets is for being too lenient.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Timorg said:

I wasn't suggesting you didn't know the difference, but being from Australia, I can only give my experiences here. I can't speak for it in NZ so I specified Australia.

A
My reply was for LennyLen, not you. Sorry for the confusion ;) Anyways, this discussion is not really about organizations, but how do you feel about a rape game, if it has room in our gaming world, and whether the consequences of playing such a game would be visible in our society in the future.

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

Quite a few games are banned here, we have no R rating for games, so if it cant be classified at or below M15+, its illegal. Any games that don't make that cut are often toned down, then released, or are released on appeal.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
"c is much better than c++ if you don't need OOP simply because it's smaller and requires less load time." - alethiophile
OMG my sides are hurting from laughing so hard... :D

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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All I can say is that the killing games I play aren't about actually going out and murdering people. For me, it is just entertainment. I'm not there killing real-looking people, and I don't think of it as killing other humans, after all, it is all fake, in fake worlds/maps/etc. War-simulator games are a step up from that, but you aren't targeting an individual. Raping someone.... that is targeting somebody and spending extensive time on that one person. It also would be realistic (I mean, if it's not, what is the point in it?). That would translate more into a game where you hunt one person, plan out a murder, etc. But in most first person shooters, you aren't really doing that, you just kill or be killed, and move on.

I think this difference is what causes the controversy. Release a detailed murder, like Matthew mentioned, simulator, and you will probably get very similar responses.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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ReyBrujo said:

Anyways, this discussion is not really about organizations, but how do you feel about a rape game, if it has room in our gaming world, and whether the consequences of playing such a game would be visible in our society in the future.

Sorry, I thought that it was the organizations that you wanted to discuss.

I feel that banning should be a very last resort, and only when it can be clearly shown that the object being banned can clearly cause harm (material that teaches how to manufacture explosives in simple steps falls into this category). In the case of these games (both rape and murder), I don't believe this is the case. If it can be proven that such games cause such harm, I'd be all for banning them then.

So while I personally find the concept of such a game repugnant, I don't believe that my belief is sufficient reason for it to be banned.

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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I think a raping game crosses a fine line making it over the top, just like a murder simulator would. But I also feel that creating maps replicating real world locations (like schools/malls/etc) for first person shooters is also over the top as well.

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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I first read this post this morning and thought I had a valuable contribution to make; but after more thought I reached the conclusion that I think games like GTA are fine to play if your not a mentalist and know it's just a game, but the idea of a rape game makes me sick, and I would hate to see it released.

However, and here is the interesting part, I can't come up with a valuable argument as to why I condone mindless violence ala GTA, but not rape.

Certainly got me thinking anyway Rey!

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Jonny Cook
Member #4,055
November 2003

I liked playing GTA 3: Vice City because it put me in the shoes of a mobster. I don't want to be a mobster, but it was a fun little escape. It's the same with books: we read books because it allows us to enter into a different world. Video games just take that to the next level. I'm sure there are a lot of erotic novels that put you in the shoes of a rapist, but I doubt anybody ever thought twice about those.

To me it seems like a video game like this is similar to couples who like to do "rape role playing" to mix up their sex life. I know it's not the same thing... but the desire might come from a similar place.

I think it would be hard for me to be against a game like this but be fine with a game like GTA without being a hypocrite. It seems like there are two different reasons why people like to play games: because they enjoy the challenge, and because they enjoy the fantasy. A game like StarCraft is probably more about the challenge. A game like this is probably more about the fantasy. GTA was both, at least for me. I would imagine a game like this would be mostly fantasy... unless it has some weird mini game type things in it. But I guess as long as it's just fantasy, you know... it's just fantasy.

But anyway, maybe the only reason I think this is because deep down inside I'm actually a rapist (and a mobster, and a scientist, and Solid Snake and...). :o

j/k

The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

Ron Novy
Member #6,982
March 2006
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ReyBrujo said:

That is hypocrisy. They think it is better to beat an old woman to death than raping. I cannot say one is better than the other (although as pointed out, you return from everything except death), but one cannot be worse than the other.

I should have been more clear... Its the prisoners who think this... And since rape and murder happens all the time in prison by people who are already demented then to them it is not hypocrisy... It's just life.

Really to me... A crime is a crime, but

ReyBrujo said:

a game about raping young girls

just goes too far... I knew a girl who was raped as a young girl and another who was molested by a family member. It scars them for life and psychological damage is worse then death in some cases... But I would never play such a game completely based on a storyline of rape. It's disgusting. Having it as part of the storyline as in a brief moment in the game is different, but having a game based on rape is just bad taste... Whomever came up with that is just demented...

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Oh... Bieber! I thought everyone was chanting Beaver... Now it doesn't make any sense at all. :-/

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Seems to me that movies as well as games in USA get restricted ratings much easier for sex than violence. I'd guess that wars have a lot to do with acceptance of violence, but sex merely gets Mrs. Grundy upset.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Ron Novy said:

I knew a girl who was raped as a young girl

Yeah, and ex-soldiers that committed suicide. We don't want to start considering the experiences of everyone, because I guess people who suffered an earthquake may not like the "disaster" button in SimCity, or people who were in a war, a game that takes that lightly, or someone who has have his family killed by drug dealers...

Think it this way: suppose a gang game has three achievements you can unlock: rape, torture, and kill, in all cases with three victims: a little girl, a woman and an ancient woman. Why would people accept the kill and the torture but not the rape? Aren't all of those crimes?

BAF said:

I think a raping game crosses a fine line making it over the top, just like a murder simulator would. But I also feel that creating maps replicating real world locations (like schools/malls/etc) for first person shooters is also over the top as well.

That is a good point. What actually crosses the line? A rape/torture/kill simulator? What about a game where you need to scare the hell out of people and if you give them a heart attack you win? Remember Carmageddon?

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale



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