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Considering An Eee PC 1000
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I'm interested in getting an inexpensive laptop just so I can have something portable for around the house, taking to work, and taking notes if I happen to take any more classes. I started looking around a little bit, but find it pretty scary trying to shop for laptops when I know next to nothing about their hardware.

Since I don't want to spent a lot I won't be getting a gaming machine, so I'm leaning towards a UNIX-like system, which I prefer over Windows. I almost considered getting a MacBook a couple of days ago, but after doing a little research on the Apple Web site got turned off of that. $1000 is way more than I want to spend and I'm sure Apple has fucked up whatever good practices their OS started with...

I've given up on and off and then today I thought maybe an Eee PC would suffice. I started doing some comparisons and decided that the ASUS Eee PC 1000 sounds pretty decent. I was pleased to discover that it's just under CDN$500 at NCIX (and in stock), which is within the bounds for what I want to spend.

http://ncix.com/products/?sku=31318&vpn=EEEPC1000-BK003&manufacture=ASUS

Brief summary:

Model: ASUS Eee PC 1000
Operating System: Linux
Screen: 10" (1024x600)
Processor: Intel Atom N270 @ 1.6 GHz (512 KB L2 cache)
Bus Speed: 533 MHz
Memory: 1 GB DDR2 SDRAM
Networking:

  • IEEE 802.11 b/g/n

  • Fast Ethernet

  • Bluetooth

Storage: 40 GB Flash (+60 GB online)
Mass/Weight: 1.3 Kg / 2.9 lbs
Camera: 1.3 MPixel
Battery Life: ~6-8 hrs
NCIX Price: CDN$495

It's available in white or black (the colors have more marketable descriptions, of course), but the white one is something like CDN$10 more from NCIX. I prefer white to black, but I think in the case of a PC it will benefit from being darkly colored so I'm leaning towards the black.

I'm looking or some advice or comments from the Allegro.cc community. Does anyone have an Eee PC and have comments on quality, reliability, etc.? Anybody have a strong technical grasp of the hardware and want to comment on it? Anybody just have experience with laptops and want to comment on it?

Comments much appreciated! \o/ Should I get it or not?

** EDIT **

I noticed in the videos that the Linux file system seems to be influenced by Windows (i.e., instead of ~/Documents, it showed My\ Home/My\ Documents, without the escape slashes, of course). Can anybody confirm or deny this and/or speak towards the ability to easily configure this? Or just any comments on the specific Linux distribution that they ship with would be appreciated...

Also, the videos don't really show for sure that it has access to terminals (virtual or pseudo), though I did see an Accessories option. Does anybody know?

madpenguin
Member #2,201
April 2002
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bamccaig said:

Anybody have a strong technical grasp of the hardware and want to comment on it?

I wouldn't call what I have a strong grasp (it's closer to a tenuous one), but I have a similar small form-factor laptop (Acer Aspire One) powered by the same chipset with the same stats, and I have nothing but good things to say about it. I was fully expecting the performance to be horrid, but it isn't. The battery life is pretty solid on mine (you'll do even better here with solid stage storage), and it's even fast enough to run some older games.

I know one EEE owner with a slightly older model, and he seems to like it, so there's that.

---------------------------------------------
Cynicism field generator is enabled and operating at 97% of capacity

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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count
Member #5,401
January 2005

Get it!
I have one and I absolutely love it.

I use it mainly for programming and surfing. But it is able to play games too.
The performance is much better than I expected.

When at home I plug in external mouse, keyboard, monitor and it is really good at displaying large resolution without the performance getting crappy.

It's the only pc I used since the start of this year for my private projects and I'm very pleased with this thing.

Whenever people ask me about it I recommend it without restrictions.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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count
Member #5,401
January 2005

I'm running Windows XP.
A friend of mine installed Ubuntu on his. There is a special EEEPc version.
He instlled it and he said everything is working flawlessly.

So if you want to go with linux the EEEpc is a good choice as well.

If you have some detailed questions about the ubunt version feel free to ask.
I will ask my freind and then report to you

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
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I have an Eee PC 1000H. It's almost exactly the same, except it has a standard 120GB hard disk instead of the Flash storage. I'm very happy with it, used it as my sole computer on a two-week trip to Vienna and enjoyed it - especially the fact that I could just toss it in my backpack and have it available anywhere I went.

It definitely exceeded my expectations in terms of performance. You can even run an IDE like Eclipse somewhat comfortably. The only problem is the lack of screen estate (1024x600 really isn't much for anything nowadays), but anything bigger would be ridiculous on a 10" screen.

I have both Windows XP Home (pre-installed) and Ubuntu on my Eee PC. Both work flawlessly. The Ubuntu installation is standard Ubuntu with the kernel replaced with a special Eee PC version - I don't know if it's the same as the special version Christopher mentioned. I don't recommend the special Xandros they pre-install by default - I found it better to install a "normal" Linux system.

Oh, and the battery life is great (if you turn off things you are not using at the time, camera, bluetooth etc.) - it can run for 6 hours straight before running out.

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[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I'm not really a fan of Ubuntu... Perhaps just because I'm more used to Fedora. Can you just install any Linux system like you typically would? I assume you have full access to the CMOS/etc., or are they locked down in some way?

** EDIT **

Seems there is a Wiki article for Fedora that attempts to list the quirks, etc. Doesn't sound like support is great for the 1000 series though. Maybe I'll try Ubuntu and if I preferred the factory OS revert back. Does anybody know if the Eee PC Linux distribution is available for free download?

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
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Normal access to the BIOS.

You can just install any Linux, but this is a laptop, so without special fixes you might have problems with:

  • ACPI performance/power saving settings

  • function keys not working

  • wireless networking

  • bluetooth

Depending on your distribution, of course. Vanilla Ubuntu has minor problems with the first two, and the wireless does not work at all until you add special drivers (the 1000 series is different from the 900 - different wireless chip).

I use Ubuntu on the desktop, too, so I never looked for another distribution for the Eee - google is your friend, though.

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[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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bamccaig said:

I'm sure Apple has fucked up whatever good practices their OS started with...

Sorry, what? Do you have any idea what you're talking about or did you just feel like posting baseless random nonsense?
Anyway, if you're looking for a really low-cost laptop, Apple doesn't make those anyway.

Anyway, Eee-pc should do. I didn't get one myself because I felt it to be a little bit too limited, and the battery life wasn't that great. It seems to have become quite a bit better on both fronts.

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
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Evert said:

and the battery life wasn't that great

What do you consider to be good battery life then? I'm not really well-versed in laptops, but as far as I know, 6 hours on batteries should be actually quite good?

Well, if not, there is always the HE model, which should get up to 9 hours thanks to a new chipset.

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[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
avatar

What do you consider to be good battery life then? I'm not really well-versed in laptops, but as far as I know, 6 hours on batteries should be actually quite good?

They didn't do six hours back when I looked at them - I think their estimated battery life was something like three, maybe four hours back then.
Yes, six hours seems to be quite good for a laptop (the iBook I got instead of an Eee-pc did six hours when the battery was new), but honestly I don't think six hours of battery life is actually that great.
I guess that means I'm saying that all laptops have poor battery life in my opinion, which is true.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Evert said:

Sorry, what? Do you have any idea what you're talking about or did you just feel like posting baseless random nonsense?

It's based on my experience with other Apple hardware/software (iPod, iTunes, drivers, etc.); as well as what I have seen of the Mac platform. It's also based on what little I know of the Mac OS X file system structure. As described in that article, Apple has taken the Microsoft approach of hiding the details from the user, which I think is a bad thing overall.

Each Linux distribution does things slightly differently, but I think most of them try to follow the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard to some degree. Mac's file system looks to be more influenced by Windows than by anything UNIX-like...

Apple doesn't seem to care much for the UNIX philosophy either, which I think shows that the only reason its a good platform to begin with is because they bought it. So I think it's fair to assume they're slowly destroying it in much the same way Microsoft would.

You could say I'm biased though.

Well, if not, there is always the HE model, which should get up to 9 hours thanks to a new chipset.

Which unfortunately only comes with Windows. I originally filtered the list by battery life and was excited when I saw this one, but the excitement faded when I scrolled over to the operating systems...

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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A Mac is definitely not the solution for you and I don't recommend you buy one. But I would comment on the following...

It's based on my experience with other Apple hardware/software (iPod, iTunes, drivers, etc.); as well as what I have seen of the Mac platform. It's also based on what little I know of the Mac OS X file system structure [www.randombob.net]. As described in that article, Apple has taken the Microsoft approach of hiding the details from the user, which I think is a bad thing overall.

The OS X subsystem is more or less separate from the BSD subsystem. Places like /Library/Frameworks contain NextStep frameworks. These are separate from the UNIX-style libraries in /lib and so on. Programs are free to use any mix of either.

There are certainly things about the OS you would find objectionable. X11 applications are unavoidably second class; the X11 window server runs on top of OS X incurring extra startup time for all X11 applications.

Quote:

Each Linux distribution does things slightly differently, but I think most of them try to follow the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard [www.pathname.com] to some degree. Mac's file system looks to be more influenced by Windows than by anything UNIX-like...

The UNIX filing hierarchy simply isn't user friendly. For example, under OS X every file that forms part of an application is contained in a single atomic application bundle. The standard method of installing an application is download a disk image, mount it, drag the application (which looks and acts like a single icon) from the disk image to wherever you want to keep it, eject disk image. Standard method of uninstalling is drag application to the trash, empty the trash.

Although application bundles are now used by applications to do everything that was done with resource forks in ye olde Mac OS, resource forks remain and are used for such things as individual file associations (extensions are used to pick a default application, but you can set which application a specific file is associated with irrespective of its extension).

bamccaig said:

Apple doesn't seem to care much for the UNIX philosophy either, which I think shows that the only reason its a good platform to begin with is because they bought it. So I think it's fair to assume they're slowly destroying it in much the same way Microsoft would.

Your comment is clearly ridiculous. Apple acquired OS X by purchasing NextStep. The operating system that is now OS X was NextStep. The name of the company changed, but the employees didn't. If you think Apple is significantly different from NextStep then you clearly think Steve Jobs isn't a significant part of Apple.

In addition, Apple continue to commit code back to the open source projects whose components they use (including substantial improvements to GCC), and that's why you'll see things like the WebKit core. The optimisation and standards compliance work they've done with it make it a central component of the iPhone. Yet, it's a KHTML fork and they continue to keep all developments quickly and easily publicly available and to foster a development community around it. So you'll also find it in places like Android and Symbian, i.e. exactly the devices that will probably push the iPhone from its consumer sales pedestal.

I'd be interested to hear your grounds for calling these Microsoft-style developments. At the minute it just sounds like baseless trolling.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

The UNIX filing hierarchy simply isn't user friendly. For example, under OS X every file that forms part of an application is contained in a single atomic application bundle. The standard method of installing an application is download a disk image, mount it, drag the application (which looks and acts like a single icon) from the disk image to wherever you want to keep it, eject disk image. Standard method of uninstalling is drag application to the trash, empty the trash.

Although application bundles are now used by applications to do everything that was done with resource forks in ye olde Mac OS, resource forks remain and are used for such things as individual file associations (extensions are used to pick a default application, but you can set which application a specific file is associated with irrespective of its extension).

The file system hierarchy isn't meant to be n00b friendly. It's meant to be reliable, secure, and organized. I think it makes good sense to give n00b users a pretty interface over top of that, so do it at the UI level, not to the underlying system. Not all users are n00bs and assuming they are just makes the system unfriendly to professionals (who happen to influence the decisions of n00bs).

It definitely sounds nice to be able to install/uninstall applications with a drag/drop interface, but there's no reason for the underlying file system to be bound to that design.

The name of the company changed, but the employees didn't.

Perhaps I wrongfully assumed that the UNIX system they acquired had a sensible file system hierarchy. If it was like that before Apple got a hold of it then I take it back. It was ruined before Apple ever got their hands on it.

That said, even Microsoft has some people working them that do know what they're doing, understand good practices, and make good design decisions. Neither one is all bad. It's been my personal experience though that the dominant people in both make poor decisions that result in bad underlying designs (i.e., Microsoft's user interfaces are often very well designed, but the underlying system is a mess). The experience for users is mostly pleasant, but for developers and power users it can be Hell.

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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bamccaig said:

The file system hierarchy isn't meant to be n00b friendly. It's meant to be reliable, secure, and organized. I think it makes good sense to give n00b users a pretty interface over top of that, so do it at the UI level, not to the underlying system. Not all users are n00bs and assuming they are just makes the system unfriendly to professionals (who happen to influence the decisions of n00bs).

I thoroughly disagree, and I think you've reached that conclusion because you adopt a thoroughly limited definition of 'professionals'. I'm a firm believer in computers as tools regardless of your profession. I don't see how the UNIX level of complexity is in any way beneficial to architects or to nurses or to writers or to accountants or to [lengthy list omitted].

Quote:

It definitely sounds nice to be able to install/uninstall applications with a drag/drop interface, but there's no reason for the underlying file system to be bound to that design.

I think the usual computer science maxims of the best designs coming at extremes applies. Compromises are usually a mish-mashed mess and Windows with the registry and the Windows filesystem hierarchy is the compromise. Quite possibly we're both sitting here in disagreement because we know our extreme and we've seen the compromise and we're incorrectly extrapolating?

Quote:

Perhaps I wrongfully assumed that the UNIX system they acquired had a sensible file system hierarchy. If it was like that before Apple got a hold of it then I take it back. It was ruined before Apple ever got their hands on it.

From your comments so far, your definition of 'sensible' seems to be nothing more than "like classic UNIX". Please explain further why you think the OS X layout is unsensible, given that everybody acknowledges that it differs from the UNIX Filesystem Hierarchy Standard.

Quote:

Perhaps I wrongfully assumed that the UNIX system they acquired had a sensible file system hierarchy. If it was like that before Apple got a hold of it then I take it back. It was ruined before Apple ever got their hands on it.

No, you have a mistaken idea of the history. The very first work on what is now NextStep began with the Mach kernel. Its big idea was to extend what UNIX does (or did, we're in history here) with pipes (ie, everything is a file; every program merely processes a form of input to produce a form of output; pipes simultaneously do away with a bunch of complexity and grant a great degree of flexibility) to inter-process communications. The consequence of that is that you can move nearly everything out of kernelspace. So the kernel is reduced to doing merely memory management, marshalling hardware access rights and ensuring threads can communicate; everything else is in userspace where it's much more secure and much easier to develop. Unfortunately, in practice it was soon discovered that the cost of that degree of process hopping made the design highly inefficient. Modern Mach kernels are much more of a pragmatic compromise between the original design and the traditional monolithic kernel.

Anyway, the kernel was designed to be a drop-in replacement for the BSD kernel. One of the main figures in Mach's development was Avie Tevanian (fear not; I just looked that up) who was hired by Steve Jobs at NextStep to produce the NextStep operating system. This was before X-Windows was any sort of standard, indeed before the X11 protocol had even been developed. So NextStep wasn't a deviation from the existing UNIX norms in most significant respects, it took a new kernel, added a BSD layer for back end and commandline stuff, then built a modern desktop OS on top of all that, targetting design professionals. The entire GUI is drawn in Postscript (a massive improvement over the competition, something that Microsoft have only managed to come up with an equivalent to in Windows Vista), the core language was fully reflective and massively capable, it had the first fully object oriented development environment outside of research and the very first rapid application development tools. They were breaking new ground, which is why NextStep was the first home of the World Wide Web and of Doom and Quake. To criticise them now for corrupting UNIX just because the UNIX most people use is the result of entirely separate, subsequent developments isn't particularly fair.

Incidentally, when Apple bought NextStep, Avie became Senior VP of Engineering at Apple and stayed until 2006. That means that the same operating system was primarily engineered by the same man for 20 years. It is therefore incorrect to cast the situation as Apple buying something that existed and subsequently morphing it.

EDIT: My belief that the computer should be a tool is also why I'm a huge fan of the Eee and the other netbooks, by the way. If they're UNIX underneath then that's fine, I just love the idea that — at least fleetingly — there's a platform that I can recommend to budget conscious relatives who want simply to do internet sites and sometimes open Word documents which they are unlikely to slowly destroy.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I thoroughly disagree, and I think you've reached that conclusion because you adopt a thoroughly limited definition of 'professionals'. I'm a firm believer in computers as tools regardless of your profession. I don't see how the UNIX level of complexity is in any way beneficial to architects or to nurses or to writers or to accountants or to [lengthy list omitted].

In the above context, professional means computer professional. That is, computer programmers, engineers, etc. The people that actually need to use the underlying file system; whereas most ordinary users never see it (or do so with a guide and are equally dumbstruck anyway).

Anyway, I don't want this thread to turn into another religious debate so I'm going to try hard not to respond to anything else regarding Apple. I went ahead and ordered the ASUS Eee PC 1000. I don't expect it for at least a week.

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Are you fucking serious?

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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From where I'm sitting it was nowhere near being a religious debate; the conversation was purely on technical merit and nobody had started reaching desperately for clearly unrelated stuff (how come Linux doesn't support my wifi or if Apple are so great, why does iTunes support DRM, etc, etc) or for name calling. But it's your thread - good luck with the Eee! I have heard that they are great machines, one of my friends who is a maths research fellow and really does all the low level UNIX stuff adores his.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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as well as what I have seen of the Mac platform. It's also based on what little I know of the Mac OS X file system structure [www.randombob.net]. As described in that article, Apple has taken the Microsoft approach of hiding the details from the user, which I think is a bad thing overall.

Each Linux distribution does things slightly differently, but I think most of them try to follow the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard [www.pathname.com] to some degree. Mac's file system looks to be more influenced by Windows than by anything UNIX-like...

Apple doesn't seem to care much for the UNIX philosophy either, which I think shows that the only reason its a good platform to begin with is because they bought it. So I think it's fair to assume they're slowly destroying it in much the same way Microsoft would.

Because we're not supposed to debate the merits and demertits of Apple here, I'll just add the following to what Thomas H. has already said: I pretty much use OS X as a generic UNIX system and have no trouble doing so. The fact that system configuration does not live in /etc does not influence my use of the system in the slightest, that my home directory is under /Users rather than /home is something I never actually notice in practice. That all X11 applications are lumped together in one window group is highly annoying and somewhat stupid, but ultimately something that doesn't hinder me too much.
Macs are popular in academia because you can use them as a UNIX system; it would be at least somewhat foolish for Apple to turn away from that.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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One thing that does bother me is OSX hides important / (root) directories from Finder. Its bloody annoying*. And it hides the settings to setup automount nfs shares*.

  • Why the hell does it hide /Volumes ??

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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Why the hell does it hide /Volumes

It does?

trent-gamblins-macbook:Monster2 trent$ ls /
Applications			etc
Desktop DB			home
Desktop DF			mach_kernel
Developer			mach_kernel.ctfsys
Library				net
Network				nul
System				opt
User Guides And Information	private
Users				sbin
Volumes				tmp
bin				usr
cores				var
dev

Oh wait, nvm, you said finder. I've never been one to use file managers much.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

It does?

A shell is not Finder

edit: nm

edit2:

Another annoying thing is OSXs support for more than one display SUCKS. It wont even place app menus at the top of a second screen. Essentially, OSX makes more than one screen mostly useless

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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Have you tried the Samsung NC10? it gets very good reviews.

Neil.
MAME Cabinet Blog / AXL LIBRARY (a games framework) / AXL Documentation and Tutorial

wii:0356-1384-6687-2022, kart:3308-4806-6002. XBOX:chucklepie

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
avatar

Finder doesn't hide /Volumes..... the contents of said folder show up on the desktop.

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