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Left 4 Dead
Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Yes, but not as evil as other DRMs.

Such as "Sorry, you can't play this because I can't connect to our servers." and "Sorry, even though you bought it and physically have it, you can't play until a specific day of our choosing, which can be different for different people." and "Sorry, this is a copy from another country. You can't install/play it here."

It's sad to realize people think DRM is "okay" or "acceptible" these days because it doesn't limit your installs. I remember when people would be pissed about having to keep floppy disks in drives when they weren't actually needed. Frog in the boiling pot and all, I guess..

Sad thing is, they never stopped with disk checks regardless of how ineffectual they were (things like Steam just remove "disk" with "server"). They probably won't stop with what they're doing now, regardless of how ineffectual it is, and just pile more and more on top of it.

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Basically, your dislike of Steam sounds like a personal problem

Damn right. And it should be a personal problem for anyone that cares about the freedom of using their legally purchased media.

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it's incredibly difficult to crack Steam games (it sounds like the physical media is encrypted and the executable is downloaded through Steam).

Just an FYI.. I didn't have any issues installing and playing Half-Life 2 (in Wine, even, and I played through the whole game!). It was quick and easy to install and setup. And I don't have Steam. So... :P

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Hard Rock
Member #1,547
September 2001
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Just an FYI.. I didn't have any issues installing and playing Half-Life 2 (in Wine, even, and I played through the whole game!). It was quick and easy to install and setup. And I don't have Steam. So.

Did you try playing online? I didn't think so. If you want to do that you have to us a fake authentication server, keep a few updates behind and play on cracked servers. Sounds really painless doesn't it?

In any case I can't take anything you say seriously. You haven't even tried steam yet you complain about it. I suppose you complain about food before you try it too? I imagine trying it wont change anything you have to say but at least you'll stop saying things like how steam isn't integrated or used in a game at all and then try to backtrack by pretending all the features it adds to the game you aren't going to use, so clearly it doesn't matter. Great. I guess game developers should remove extra levels and maps since you won't be playing those either huh?

If you want to complain about how terrible it is, use it first, then pretend that it did bad things to you (since we already know that's what you'll say) and complain about it after.

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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Did you try playing online?

As I said, I'm not an online gamer. And even if I was, I would use a private server if at all possible since I don't like playing with random strangers (even if I had Steam).

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In any case I can't take anything you say seriously. You haven't even tried steam yet you complain about it.

You don't need to try dog crap to know it tastes like dog crap. :P Besides which, with all the DRM-related stuff I've brought up, no one's been able to refute it (except the constant-authentication thing; it does authenticate periodically and lock you out if it can't, it just doesn't do it every time). All I'm told is "it's not that bad," instead of "that's not how it works".

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at least you'll stop saying things like how steam isn't integrated or used in a game at all and then try to backtrack by pretending all the features it adds to the game you aren't going to use

If you actually read what I wrote, I said this is what people told me when I asked about it. I asked if Steam does anything while you're running a game, and I'm told "no, it's completely idle, taking up no resources." I then ask what value it has to a running game, and I'm told "well, it does this and this to the game so you can do all this while you're playing". If you want to complain that I'm being inconsistant, then at least complain to the people that are trying to sugar-coat Steam and giving inconsistant information.

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I guess game developers should remove extra levels and maps since you won't be playing those either huh?

If those extra levels don't ever prevent me from playing the other levels, there's no need to get rid of them. Bloat != unwanted functionality

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Furthermore having Steam on your computer actually protects you from Evil DRM protections.

Except when it doesn't. It's completely up to the original developer/publisher if they want to remove their own DRM in the Steam version. <a href=""http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26641367"">Not everyone is so gracious</a>. So with Steam, not only do you get Steam's DRM, but potentially also the DRM of the original game.

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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If you want to complain about how terrible it is, use it first

The "Don't say something is bad if you haven't tried it" argumant is stupid. I've never tried wiping my ass with razorwire either, but I sure as hell know it would hurt.

Mokkan
Member #4,355
February 2004
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The "Don't say something is bad if you haven't tried it" argumant is stupid. I've never tried wiping my ass with razorwire either, but I sure as hell know it would hurt.

Sure. But I can't say that pizza tastes like shit if I've never tasted it. So basically, YOUR argument fails.

Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

Well technically it isn't idle, among anything evil it may be doing, (matter of opinion,) It also provides the following functionality, so if steam isn't running the following shouldn't work.

Achievement Tracking
Multi-player Authentication/Authorization
Matchmaking
Community Information (aka the little display icon next to your name in a multi-player game),
Networking api (sockets implementation that is NAT aware)
Valve Anti-Cheat
Voice
and DRM

Personally I have an always on internet connection, and my isp hosts a steam mirror, so all my downloads are not counted. I am willing to put up with DRM and steam taking resources, for actually being able to talk to my team members and not having to play against people that cheat. The Achievements are a nice feature, being able to see display pics really doesn't add anything to a game. I haven't played a game that required match making so I can't comment on that. I occasionally send messages on steam, to people that don't do dual screen, who are too lazy to alt-tab to talk to me elsewhere.

So steam doesn't just sit there eating resources (48,032K, sitting idle) while you play your game, it provides a lot of functionality, whether you want it or not. If these features are not important to you, well I guess steam possibly isn't for you. But saying all it does is provide DRM and eat resources, isn't accurate, and doesn't add anything to the argument. Just because you don't use those features, doesn't mean that other users don't want to use them.

Imagine from a developers point of view, you can't know what features a person has turned on and off, because they don't want particular things, having to check about each, its easier to force it on some users that don't want it, so that a developer can assume that all are available.

This is what steam provides at this point, these features may increase in the future, I am pretty sure the DRM isn't going to change.

Now onto my bias personal opinion, I remember in the early 90s going to a store and buying a top end computer game was still $70 (AUS), games have actually come down in price, if DRM can force the prices lower again, I will buy more games. I'm not the person to run off and get a hacked copy, I balance how much I want to play with how much it costs. Too expensive and I just won't play. Because I am always online anyway, the DRM in steam is unobtrusive, and the whole thing just works. So with the features that it provides, the cost of the DRM to me 0, I am more than happy to use steam and keep using steam. Why all of it needs to be loaded when its sitting in the system tray, I don't know, but I have 4gig of ram 48meg isn't that big a deal.

If you want these features in your allegro game, you can get it here Steamworks, but I am pretty sure it would kill cross platform compatibility. >:D The API and Libs are free, but not surprisingly it locks you to the steam platform.

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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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But saying all it does is provide DRM and eat resources, isn't accurate

I never said that's all it does. I just said that that's what needs to go for me to consider using Steam.

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Because I am always online anyway, the DRM in steam is unobtrusive, and the whole thing just works.

I'm sure people thought the same thing about the music purchased from Microsoft or Yahoo..

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Sure. But I can't say that pizza tastes like shit if I've never tasted it. So basically, YOUR argument fails.

If everyone else who has tasted it says it does, you can. Sure, you could be a stubborn prick and choose to not believe other people, but that's another matter.

Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Sure, you could be a stubborn prick and choose to not believe other people

Isn't that what you're doing here?

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Isn't that what you're doing here?

See, the problem is I do believe other people. Steam has DRM, does it not? It can prevent you from running apps because it can't log in with remote servers, can it not? This is what people say, and I've seen this myself. No one is saying it doesn't do this. Don't get upset because I call a spade a spade. :P

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Isn't that what you're doing here?

No. While I don't like the idea of Steam, I'd use if there was a single game for the platform that looked interesting to me. I just know that I would turn most of the extra features off, as privacy is very important to me, and apart from Diablo, I haven't played a game online since Dune 2000 was new. I also wouldn't buy games online, as I ahve a very expensive, limited-bandwidth, internet account. So in otherwords, for me, it would be nothing but unwanted bloatware. If you like running programs that have no benefit for you, then kudos to you.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Timorg said:

...48,032K, sitting idle...

On my system (XP, 2GB RAM) it's only consuming ~15MB ATM when idle according to Task Manager.

Kitty Cat said:

I'm sure people thought the same thing about the music purchased from Microsoft or Yahoo..

Steam is done considerably differently from most DRM solutions though. For example, you can download the games you've purchased to as many computers as you want as many times as you want (but understandably must be logged in as the licensed user to play and can only be online once). I don't think I've heard of any other services that permit you to do that. Which means you don't have to worry about losing or damaging discs and I don't think you need to worry about activation keys either. Usually it saves a lot of hassle. As with all solutions, there can be hiccups, but I don't think that's any reason to avoid the platform all together. It's mostly a satisfying solution or it wouldn't be as successful as it is.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Steam is done considerably differently from most DRM solutions though.

It still has that same snag, though. If the servers are ever put down, you cannot verify and will not be able to play the games you bought. Sure, they say that they'll disable activations or whatever if the servers are to go down permanently, but all you have on that is their word. They are under no obligation to do it, and you can't know what the people controlling Steam at the time it goes down will do. So at this point, I have no reason to trust them until I see them follow through on their word and disable activations.

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Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

Kitty Cat:
I didn't mean to imply that you said it does. I was just throwing out why I like it, and things I think that are good about it. Too much of this is people telling other people what to think, and who is wrong.

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"c is much better than c++ if you don't need OOP simply because it's smaller and requires less load time." - alethiophile
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Epsi
Member #5,731
April 2005
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I've just tested the Steam public demo, and it is AWESOME ;D
So I've pre-ordered the game.

On the Steam subject, I would buy a Steam version of a PC game over the retail version ANY DAY. It has just too much convenience for me, from low dollar-euro conversion, downloadable games, pre-loading, automated backup system...

And as a game developer, I would rather publish with Steam that any other solution.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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If these features are not important to you, well I guess steam possibly isn't for you. But saying all it does is provide DRM and eat resources, isn't accurate, and doesn't add anything to the argument. Just because you don't use those features, doesn't mean that other users don't want to use them.

You've hit the nail in the head. However I'm forced to use Steam if I want to play one of the games distributed via it (no matter if there's a CD version, you still need it). Just to make myself clear I'm not against it as a distribution platform, in fact I think it's great, it's like many package distribution systems on Linux.

However I'm running package manager only when I need new software. Not everytime I use it. I'm quite fine in registering the game after I download it, but afterwards I'd expect no need for Steam, because I want to play offline game and don't want to mess with community. Besides it's been a long time since I've played online regulary. And when I do today, I do it with friends I know personally. Not with total strangers who have time to play the game every day and have insane skill and often shout n00b.

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ngiacomelli
Member #5,114
October 2004

... And if you look to your right, you'll see the original thread topic.

I had a frustrating two-hour long play of the demo last night. Although I've completed the campaign on Expert a number of times, it becomes far more difficult if your team members refuse to strategise or stick together.

We also encountered an interesting 'exploit'. Basically, when your entire team arrives in the safe rooms (which act as level transition markers/checkpoints), the game takes their health at the time of arrival and uses that for each subsequent level restart (after team-wide death). As a result, we'd choose the healthiest member of the team to shoot the rest of us dead. Once the three of us were past the point of resuscitation, the healthy player would lock the safe room and everyone would start at full health for the next segment.

It's also fun to start the demo with a friend and then use console commands to kick the two computer-controlled players you're partnered with, creating an impromptu 'Left 2 Die' game mode :D.

I noticed VAVLe released a second patch to tweak various gameplay aspects. Including ramping the difficulty up on Expert and Advanced! Not long now, folks.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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After a frustrating struggle against BSODs and shitty drivers (note to self: never ever buy ATI again) I've managed to play the single-player portion of the demo. The game looks promising. Its network code... not so much. I have yet to get a multiplayer game working. :P

And for the record, the Steam forum's search function is among the worst I've ever come across - no keyboard navigation in the humungous listbox, 60 second cooldown plus an anti-captcha (it's so unreadable you need a computer to crack it!)...

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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someone972
Member #7,719
August 2006
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While we're complaining about some steam aspects I'll complain about the valve store (Not technically steam but Oh Well). My only issue is that the abbreviated the shipping methods and didn't provide any description of what they were. My headcrab hat I ordered came nice and fast though;).

As far as steam I haven't had any issues so far. I was pleasantly supprised to receive some other games when I entered my Half Life CD code into steam.

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Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Its network code... not so much. I have yet to get a multiplayer game working.

The dedicated servers are getting thrashed, so they're kind of iffy, but hosting locally always seems to work fine for us.

Looking at the update notes, they seem to have some growing pains with their new multiplayer setup.

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Fixed a bug where the connection to a server would get stuck in a looping state

Made sv_steamgroup_exclusive not connect to matchmaking. Removed sv_unreserve, private servers should sv_steamgroup_exclusive now

Improved the speed in finding a game lobby

Fixed a bug that could cause you to search for a game lobby indefinitely

Fixed problem with users not being able to connect to dedicated servers

Fix a bug with the group browser not always showing the list of group servers

Tuned matchmaking to provide better search results

Added UI to host a game on a local server

Improvements and performance optimizations to network layer

Fixed several issues with matchmaking and password protected servers

Tuned matchmaking to provide better search results

Fixed bug where servers could stay reserved by matchmaking forever

Performance optimizations and fixes to networking layer

That's like 90% of the fixes.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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someone972 said:

My only issue is that the abbreviated the shipping methods and didn't provide any description of what they were.

I see what you mean... Which ones go to Canada!? :'(

Mokkan
Member #4,355
February 2004
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I played through single player on the demo a few times yesterday. This game would kick ass for a LAN party. I don't think single player really works for a game like this, though...

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Hey, I finally got a game running. All it took was ~20 tries, and when I finally managed to connect to a game it had taken the bloody thing almost a full minute to find it. :P
And consolification has struck again - not only can you not select a specific game to join, it seems you can't even see your in-game ping. And latency seems to be a big issue with this game...

The game itself seems awesome, however, so if they fix that I'll probably buy it.

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Schyfis
Member #9,752
May 2008
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Anyone have any problems with the latest patch?
A friend and I both have the same problem, the game crashes when it is launched. On my Vista machine it says "left4dead.exe has stopped working" while on his XP computer it gives a generic host process for Windows services error or something.

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