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Left 4 Dead
Mokkan
Member #4,355
February 2004
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It has a friends system and an ingame overlay... and there's the Steam Community stuff. Probably some other stuff I'm missing.

I don't mind Steam at all. It has its ups and downs... like everything else.

Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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What Mokkan said. And now that Left 4 Dead is out, it's got matchmaking. It's basically Xbox Live, but for free.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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It has a friends system and an ingame overlay... and there's the Steam Community stuff.

So not only is it running, it actually interferes with the game. :-/ And I'm already in enough "communities" (message boards, IRC, IMs), so I don't need to be in touch with even more people..

I won't say Steam is all bad.. it's a good idea, just implemented badly. This just ends up reflecting badly on the game itself when it's a requirement.

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Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Quote:

it's a good idea, just implemented badly.

Obviously, you speak from experience.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Obviously, you speak from experience.

I don't see anyone saying my problems with it aren't real. Does it not provide heavy-handed DRM? Does it not run when it's not needed? Does it not require itself to be running to play some of the games?

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Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Quote:

I won't say Steam is all bad.. it's a good idea, just implemented badly. This just ends up reflecting badly on the game itself when it's a requirement.

I have to agree. I would prefer if Steam was a supplemental component as opposed to an integral one. I've never used Steam myself, but that's also part of the reason for not using things like that. What's wrong with leaving the game separate anyway?

Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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I thought the whole reason we were against DRM because the companies were failing to change with the times and taking it out on the consumer. Steam is example of someone doing it right, and you're shunning them?

Isn't it useful to have an "obtrusive interface" (which, by the way, doesn't show unless you hit shift-tab) to let you IM etc. in-game?

Don't you want to see what games your friends are playing and be able to join them with one click?

I like that I don't have to keep track of a billion CD keys and not have to fish out the discs or find a decent torrent just to install the game. It's also nice only having to remember one username/password and all my buddies' usernames.

The fact that they put indie games right next to the big titles is pretty nice, too.

What's your solution, though? What would be acceptable in place of Steam? Cuz if they use the usual model, they probably can't do the cheap-as-hell deals they usually do.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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I thought the whole reason we were against DRM because the companies were failing to change with the times and taking it out on the consumer. Steam is example of someone doing it right, and you're shunning them?

Not letting the consumer play the game unless they can verify with remote servers (and if said remote servers aren't available, no-go) is right, now?

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Isn't it useful to have an "obtrusive interface" (which, by the way, doesn't show unless you hit shift-tab) to let you IM etc. in-game?

Generally when I want to play a game, I want to play a game, not IM people. And the times I do, I just run windowed and leave my IM/IRC client open.

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Don't you want to see what games your friends are playing and be able to join them with one click?

I don't play multiplayer games much. And those that do, I tend to prefer coop, playing only with said friends (ie. not on public servers).

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I like that I don't have to keep track of a billion CD keys and not have to fish out the discs or find a decent torrent just to install the game.

The solution, then, is to get rid of CD keys and CD checks. :P If I have a CD, I know I can try to install it at any time. Without, I can only install it if they'll let me get a copy (and then have to take the time to download).

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The fact that they put indie games right next to the big titles is pretty nice, too.

That is nice (Portage, Gentoo's package manager, does this too, BTW).

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What's your solution, though? What would be acceptable in place of Steam? Cuz if they use the usual model, they probably can't do the cheap-as-hell deals they usually do.

Get rid of the built-in DRM, and let the app run without having to run Steam, too. At that point, I would consider installing Steam (though I would still only buy a particular game depending on the availability of a physical copy and amount of copy-protection on it). Steam can be there to manage game patches, provide access to free/demo downloads, or even be able to download a copy if I'm missing my CD.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Not letting the consumer play the game unless they can verify with remote servers (and if said remote servers aren't available, no-go) is right, now?

You can play games in offline mode after authenticating once (and you need to do that anyway to download the game in the first place :P).

Steam has its shortcomings (a few of which I hate), but as far as inherently-evil-DRM solutions go, Steam is by far not the worst of the bunch.

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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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You can play games in offline mode after authenticating once (and you need to do that anyway to download the game in the first place :P).

I guess I'm just one of those crazies that prefers installing from a CD, instead (I prefer having a physical copy, and if I have one, I'm not going to want to take the time to download a multi-gigabyte install; especially since I have an oh-so-lovely monthly cap now). For single-player games or private multi-player connections, I should not have to connect to them to "verify" I'm not a criminal (not that it does very well in verifying those that are criminals :P).

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as far as inherently-evil-DRM solutions go, Steam is by far not the worst of the bunch.

True, but that doesn't mean it's good or should be acceptable. A 5-install-limit isn't good or acceptable just because it could be a 3-install-limit. Unnecessary online connectivity to verify my innocence shouldn't be good or acceptable just because it could have an install limit.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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I should not have to connect to them to "verify" I'm not a criminal

Uh, if you're not actually getting the game from Steam in the first place then obviously you don't need to authenticate with it. What's the problem?

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Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Uh, if you're not actually getting the game from Steam in the first place then obviously you don't need to authenticate with it.

So if I buy a boxed copy of a game that requires me to install Steam (which is kind of dumb-sounding in itself), I won't have to connect when I try to install/run it?

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Mokkan
Member #4,355
February 2004
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I can't get the demo to install :(. I went to the page in the Steam browser and clicked install, and the button doesn't do anything...

EDIT: Oh I see. I need to pre-order.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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So if I buy a boxed copy of a game that requires me to install Steam (which is kind of dumb-sounding in itself), I won't have to connect when I try to install/run it?

I think it depends on the game in question. I think the Orange Box does require a Steam account, but I don't think that goes for third-party games.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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It was enough to hear those problems when HL2 came out. Lots of people bought a copy in stone store and were unpleasantly surprised that they need an internet connection, where they haven't any or dial-up to which Steam isn't friendly.

And I was very disappointed to realise that I won't be able to play HL2 on holiday w/o internet connection. So that meant change of plans (holiday won and HL2 as well, still no internet...).

Plus basicaly those features you all just said - like IM conversation, friends, other people knowing what you play. Some are unnecessary and some smell like Big Brother is watching over your shoulder.

So no Steam for me.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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And I was very disappointed to realise that I won't be able to play HL2 on holiday w/o internet connection.

Wait, that's not true; as long as you have authenticated online once, you can play offline as much as you want.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Wait, that's not true; as long as you have authenticated online once, you can play offline as much as you want.

Allright, I haven't known this one. Anyway I still have to authenticate even if I buy a copy in stone store. Which is kinda awkward when you don't have internet access.

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Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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ngiacomelli
Member #5,114
October 2004

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I'd take a CD key in a manual's back cover over having to authenticate online anyday.

Print is a dying medium. I'm willing to bet you won't have much of a choice in a few years or so.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Print is a dying medium. I'm willing to bet you won't have much of a choice in a few years or so.

I wouldn't say that. Personally I don't like reading books on computer display. And so many other people. Regarding the choice - you can restrain from buying it. And since most recent games are all about graphics and gameplay seems to be forgotten, not to mention that play time hardly exceeds 10 hours.

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ngiacomelli
Member #5,114
October 2004

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Personally I don't like reading books on computer display.

I completely agree, it's horrible. I'm fantatical about books. But that doesn't change the fact that the medium is dying.

Hard Rock
Member #1,547
September 2001
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Wait, that's not true; as long as you have authenticated online once, you can play offline as much as you want.

Technically they will force you to reconnect every x days, I'm not sure of the exact number but it is somewhere in the up to a month range.

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Sirocco
Member #88
April 2000
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Print is a dying medium. I'm willing to bet you won't have much of a choice in a few years or so.

Buy it. Crack it. Problem solved. When I buy games I crack them, because the only thing more annoying than DRM is DRM when you've actually paid for the game.

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ngiacomelli
Member #5,114
October 2004

I have no real issues with limited installation DRM solutions. You can install the game a set number of times and are given an install back to that number when you uninstall.

Sure, it's not perfect. But if it keeps publishers interested in the PC market, I'm all for it. Ironically, most leaked game titles hit the console markets first these days, anyway.

I would have absolutely no problem with DRM solutions if more publishers used a 'hot potato' policy (my own terminology, there). Whereby: a game is secured via DRM and given limited installations/online activation for period of a few years or so, and is then unlocked for archive purposes.

That said, I'm not a fan of rootkits and other nasty implementations.

Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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