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Space Battles with Shields (Star Trek like) |
spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Since I was to play Star Trek: 25th anniversery, I played EGA Trek instead, which is my the 2nd best classic trek game for the PC, IMO. Anyway, EGA Trek is basically a spiced up version of the many "trek" games available. You have your a grid of 8x8 quadrants. Each quadrant contains 8x8 sectors. Each sector contains either a ship, a star base or a star. The game features three types of energy: And while playing the game, I started to think about the correlation between shields, hits and damage. In the series, the enterprise could be hit by some blasts, which wouldn't do much besides draining some energy from the shields. So, I was wondering how one could simulate this. My best idea was to say that a shield will block all attacks up to a certain percent of the current shield energy. If we have 500 units of energy in the shields, a hit with up to 250 units of energy will not cause damage to the ship, but simply drain this energy from the shields. If something stronger hits the shields, the shields will at first block a part of the attack. The remaining energy will be split upon damage and shields, but the energy drain from the shields is increased. Example: Shield Energy: 500 Attack: 300 Shield overload modifier: 1.25. Amount of energy the shield can block totally: 50% of 500 = 250 Remaining energy: 50 Energy split between shields and damage: 25/25 Energy drained from shields: 250 + 25*1.25 = 287.5 Damage: 25 New shield level: 500 - 287 = 212.5 Then I thought that this looks strange, since the shield drain to hit ratio never felt like 1:1 in the series. As long as the shields were holding, everything was fine, and they could take quite some hits. So, I added a shield drain modifier. Shield Energy: 500 Attack: 300 shield drain modifier: 0.5 Shield overload modifier: 1.25. Amount of energy the shield can block totally: 50% of 500 = 250 Energy blocked: 250 Energy drained: 250 * 0.5 = 125 Remaining attack energy: 50 Energy split between shields and damage: 25/25 Energy drained from shields: 125 + 25*1.25 = 137.5 Damage: 25 New shield level: 500 - 137.5 = 362.5 This feels better. Esp. if one also plays with the "efficiency factor", also the amount of energy the shields can block totally or if the main reactor can provide some energy each round to refill the shields. Let's say the main reactor can provide 5% of the maximum energy each round to the 3 energy systems, we can a behavior that seems more or less ok. That way one can also transfer "more power to the shields" without giving the energy a "battery feel". Ok, why am I posting this? -- |
Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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It appears that you've put more thought into how shields should work than did the game designers for the existing commercial star trek games. Planning on writing an EGA-Trek clone? Or just having fun?
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spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Justt wondering. While writing the above, it occured to me, that it would allow you to some nice things with regards to equipment. So, you can give smaller, but newer ships an advantage by increasing the efficiency (how much of the current shield energy can be blocked) and the drain modifiers. Give each of these options a price - not only with regards to actual costs, but also size or weight and the player has something to tinker with when he upgrades his ship (star base, or ship "level up"). Quote: Planning on writing an EGA-Trek clone? Or just having fun?
Not sure it needs a remake. The original EGA Trek is still fun -- |
Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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Hmm, you're reminding me of Elite. Space RPGs are the best!
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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For my ideas (which I haven't tried to implement yet but seem sweet to me), I'll first briefly explain quantum tunneling. Say we have a particle moving to the right with a kinetic energy E. It encounters a potential barrier of height V. Classically, it will cross the barrier if E>V, with its kinetic energy reduced to E-V. If E<V, it will hit the barrier and (probably) rebound. If you absorb the kinetic energy into the potential barrier to reduce it, then this will already work very nicely for shields. I like the quantum idea better though: in this case, there is a finite probability that even for E<V, the particle tunnels through the barrier and for E>V it can still bounce back. There are two possibilities I can think of for shields here: either you calculate the probability of the particle penetrating the barrier and roll for that. If it penetrates, it penetrates and otherwise you absorb the energy into the barrier and lower it. My preferred method would be to do this in proportion though: if the probability amplitude for penetration is 10% and for reflection is 90%, then you absorb 90% of the energy in the shields and 10% goes to the ship (likely the hull). Either way, hits will reduce the shield strength and chance of blocking and at the same time there is always a moderate chance of taking damage, so shields provide mostly statistical rather than absolute protection. Powerful hits instantly overload the shields and do damage to the ship. I think all of this is also reasonably consistent with the Star Trek way of shield operation. Of course, the only way I ever implemented shields at all is by having them take the damage instead of the hull. This is easy, but I think the method I outlined above (distribute damage between the shields and the ship in proportion with the fractions depending on the strength of the shields and the energy of the projectile) will be both quasi-realistic and fun. The statistical distribution of full damage has the same result on average but has the disadvantage that even at full shields, your hull can take the full impact of a photon torpedo. |
A J
Member #3,025
December 2002
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from the tv show, i get the impression they dont take damage until sheilds are 0%. are you trying to create a meaningful overlap, were damage can occur when sheilds > 0 ? maybe your ship could take specific damage to areas of the ship, when sheilds are less than 50%, like if the enemy targets your warp core/engines, it could damage them even when you have shields.. as that seems to happen on the show often, they loose engine power when they still have shields. if your not sure how to do it, just make it random, and then blame Q. ___________________________ |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote: from the tv show, i get the impression they dont take damage until sheilds are 0%.
Actually, I think they do. Think of phrases like `shields are holding, minor damage only' or the combat sequence at the end of Star Trek VI, where the Enterprise takes quite a beating before Scotty's `Shields collapsing!' |
Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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Quote: your hull can take the full impact of a photon torpedo. If I understand correctly, shields only block phasers, etc, shuttles can fly through them (taking damage, as seen in an ep of TNG, had something to do with one of the fed officers becomming a spy against the mockee or something) and also photon torpedos too (altho photons would see more enegery/light than physical mass, I think they can go through shields.) Quote: from the tv show, i get the impression they dont take damage until sheilds are 0%. are you trying to create a meaningful overlap, were damage can occur when sheilds > 0 ? Not so. The shields almost never hit 0 in TNG, but they always take damage and the crew flys all over the bridge, and there's always repairs to be made, etc... Not sure if the damage taken is from turbulance, or projectile damage tho...
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote: If I understand correctly, shields only block phasers, etc, shuttles can fly through them (taking damage, as seen in an ep of TNG, had something to do with one of the fed officers becomming a spy against the mockee or something)
Nope, shields block physical objects as well as particle beams. See for instance the TNG episode Relics, in which Geordi and Scotty use an old ship to jam open the portal of a Dyson sphere, or indeed the episode you mentioned (Preemptive Strike), in which Lieutenant Ro takes a Maquis figher craft through the Enterprise shields at a weak spot, but only because Picard order Worf to let them pass (ie, weaken the shields enough for the shuttle to pass through). Quote: and also photon torpedos too (altho photons would see more enegery/light than physical mass, I think they can go through shields.) A photon torpedo is very much a physical object. I'm not sure if you get to see one in Next Generation, but you get to see them in Star Trek III and Star Trek VI at least (Spock was buried in one). It's a warhead with a detonation payload of anti-matter. And they don't go through shields (see Star Trek Generations, for instance) although the energy released by a torpedo blast can overload the shields if it detonates too close (eg, The Nth Degree). And no I'm going to do something else, because being able to quote those episodes from memory scares the hell out of me. |
Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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Interesting, how you mention that later on, Phasers/Torpedos can go out through your own shields, but not in through an enemies... Quote: being able to quote those episodes from memory scares the hell out of me. As it should!
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spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Well, they beam with raised shields as well if they need. But I don't think we should expand this to a discussion of logical flaws in a Scifi series. back to my original topic: how would you handle such a protection? You don't have to look at it from the Star Trek or even scifi side, consider it to be a protective spell in a fantasy setting if you like. I just want to discuss the basic idea of it, and how one could implement such thing. -- |
Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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If it were fantasy armour spell, I would have armour as a specific amount, and if the damage taken was over a certain percent of the armour, a certain percent would get through and cause damage to your hp. This sounds like you can hit a certain level and be invincible, and in a lot of RPGs that's just how it is, however those levels are usually high enough that you can't take on a creature double your level, or with a stronger protective spell, or damage spell etc.
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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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What about this: Shileds -= weapon_dmg; Hull -= weapon_dmg - dmg_resistance;
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Torbjörn Josefsson
Member #1,048
September 2000
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Evert: Yup, that's scary... we might have to send a man out to put you down - I'm the same, but with the series Friends ashamed
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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Shields block whatever objects the plot requires them to block, and the screenplay writer(s) will always find an excuse for something to penetrate the shield / damage the hull / wiggle around persons on the bridge, provided the plot and / or dramatic curve of the movie demands so. Anyway, as far as damage goes, I prefer to have a minimum blow strength that is required for a single blow to cause any damage at all. Otherwise, my itsy-bitsy 0.5 mW laser gun can destroy a giant asteroid, provided I keep firing at it long enough. --- |
FrankyR
Member #243
April 2000
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Spell, I like the ideas you came up with for the shields; that's more thought that I've ever put into it (I'm also tempted to use that as a starting point for how I handle defense in an combat engine I'm designing). When it comes to shields / defense like that I like the idea of having different kinds of shields and attacks that can render each other useless. For example, a traditional shield may be bypassed by a certain kind of phase-shift weapon, or like in Master of Orion 2 teleporters can function through normal shields (useful for boarding an enemy ship) but they do not function through special 'Hard Shields'. MOO2 also divides ships' physical defence into 2 categories: armour and internal structure. Once through the shields weapons will either damage armour, internal strucure or both. The ship is destroyed when internal structure reaches zero and the lower it gets the more chance there is of some systems going offline. Most weapons do a majority of their damage to armour and a little bit to the internal structre until the armour is fully depleted, but some weapons will bypass armour completly and damage only internal structure. |
Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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Quote: Shields recharge Shields don't recharge, but their energy source does, energy can also be temporarily rerouted from other systems not as aparantly vital... Seperate Thought: One thing I wondered about in startrek was that they were out gunned all the time, with a shuttle bay full of shuttles, why didn't they ever use the shuttles to battle? (or even try supe up the shuttles to battle?) (1 big ship) < (1 big ship + 15 tiny ships) ...
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spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Quote: Shields don't recharge, but their energy source does We aren't talking only star trek anymore, but possible shields in general Quote: with a shuttle bay full of shuttles, why didn't they ever use the shuttles to battle? (or even try supe up the shuttles to battle? I guess because they are shuttles, not fighters. Shuttles don't have the speed, or the turning radius to be a threat to a larger ship. Their shields can't take much damage, and normally they only have less powerfull phasers. On the other hand, even those phasers might make a difference, so the shuttle would be attacked immediatly - so flying such a shuttle is more or less suicide - esp. during the launch of the shuttle. But we have seen smaller fighter is several of the battle sequences, and some ships actually are actually equiped with these small, well armed and very fast ships. -- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote: Seperate Thought: One thing I wondered about in startrek was that they were out gunned all the time, with a shuttle bay full of shuttles, why didn't they ever use the shuttles to battle? They need to drop shields to launch the shuttle, which implies a scenario along the lines of launch shuttle Besides, I think the amount of shuttles isn't that large. I think the Enterprise is supposed to carry ten; Voyager is supposed to carry two (so that they managed to loose about twenty over the run of the series can in my opinion only be explained by assuming that they reserved replicator power so they could build a big one right into the shuttlebay so all they had to do was say `Computer, one shuttlecraft!'). |
Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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...in which case it wouldn't make sense to carry more than a few of them... --- |
spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Small note: whether or not the shields need to be lowered depends on the plot and speed of the shuttle -- |
Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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The former, mainly. --- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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As does the conversion between warp factor/lightyear per day or even full impulse/lightyear per day (sic!). |
Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Hail the Almighty Plot! We must obey The Plot! In Plot we trust! --- |
Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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Quote: We aren't talking only star trek anymore, but possible shields in general I still don't think shields should ever "recharge" but the shield's power source can... of course to simply things, most implimentations (in games) have the power source as an unknown embedded in the actual shield technology, and the shields do appear to just "recharge" -- ex: protoss in starcraft... edit: I want a dylithium crystal!
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