http://i.gizmodo.com/5220277/cnbc-is-ridiculous-macs-come-with-photoshop-pcs-need-600-extra-to-perform-as-well-as-a-mac

What the hell? Who said this? Photoshop ships with mac? My god. The whole mac vs. pc thing is silly. I use both a PC and a mac daily, and they both have their advantages. Of course, one of the advantages of my macbook pro is that I didn't have to pay for it myself

macbooks are coming with a free... MACBOOK!!!!

Since when is Photoshop $140 dollars? (I know I know, it doesn't come with mac but still).

Maybe this and the recent Endpoint Technology Associates report cancel each other out?

CNBC are the ones (well, BusinessWeek actually) who made the stupid claims. The link bam gives is from people smart enough to call it bullshit.

The other day, I heard a talking head on the radio make the claim that computers never go down in price.

Being given a megaphone is no guarantee of competency.

I once had to fix an old PowerBook... The owner was trading it for a PC laptop because the powerbook no longer turned on... At all! I did my best to repair it, but it was apparently more then just the power board that was damaged... Since I don't have software or hardware to transfer the old files to his new computer I told him he's basically on his own to find someone to do it... For repair, recovery of the hard disc and then the transfer of files to CD/DVD it came to about $300... Add in the cost of the powerbook and... epic failure!

But that's only one PowerBook... I'm sure they're more durable and less expensive these days...

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Is anything in this list acurate?

So a Geek Squad visit is mandatory now for PC users?
I wonder where they got these statistics.

Norton Anti-Virus is $39.99/yr or Norton 360 All-in-one is $79.99/yr and both drop in prize if you buy 2 years at once... But you could always go with AVG or another FREE anti-virus.

Multimedia software Like ummm.. Media player... FREE!

Photoshop $699 for regular and $999 for the extended version! It sure as hell isn't free with any Mac! So it's not relevant...

Video Editing: Like Uhmm... Microsoft Movie Maker??? FREE!

Music software... Again. FREE!

Geek Squad? ~ $129.99 or $149.99... But why include it?

You see that CNBC! I just did more research in about 4 minuets then your sorry ass 'tech' guy ever did... Bad reporting! GO SUCK IT CNBC. And you can quote me on that.

What is a Geek Squad?

CNN has a "tech guy" too that does a spot every now and then. The guy's just as clueless. It's as if their "experts" have no actual understanding of computers and their use, rather, they just looked up some stuff about computers on the internet and reported on it.

Their experts knowledge of computers is questionable, but I'm sure they could name off each and every sponsor of the program...

[edit]
The geek squad has gotten more and more expensive since they started doing a lot more and paying the employees a lot more... Their more like vampires if you ask me...

like... Apple?

Well I have never edited video short of removing adverts, which I did with nero. Everything else I use free software to do it. So that's a saving of $623, minus $70 for nero.

I'm not even sure what a Geek Squad Visit is, so I am guessing I don't need it.

So I save $553, where the PC is at least that much cheaper, (comparing dell and apple.)

And if you compare a standard Apple laptop with a PC of the same hardware what do you see? About 50% off the price and... duh duh duh duh... freedom to do whatever you like with that extra money :P

He didn't even mention Linux. All the software is free! You only have to pay for the hardware! It's the best deal around!

It's nice to see that Allegro.cc is no more free of disinformation than CNBC (EDIT: or BusinessWeek).

If the world were free of both Microsoft and Apple's recent advertising campaigns then I think it would be a much happier place. At least Microsoft dumped the Seinfeld/Gates and Mojave stuff very quickly, albeit to replace them with a cheap shot at the bloggers.

I didn't find any spelling errors.

That also is what I noted about Ron Novy's post.

It's crap though. But at least there are other, better, free alternatives.

Let's see...
- Cheapest possible price: PC wins.
- Price for comparable hardware configuration: Hard to compare, because OS X isn't sold separately, so there is no barebone price for a Mac
- Design: Matter of taste (but design addicts are often Apple fanboys)
- Usability: Matter of taste, and what you're used to (in my experience, most non-technical users tend to prefer OS X once they have gotten used to it)
- Shipped software: Matter of taste (my personal opinion is that anything a Mac ships with outperforms the PC equivalents by an order of magnitude)
- Available software: PC wins (unless you absolutely need Logic or other mac-only software)
- OS security: Mac wins (using a default configuration; Windows is probably on par if heavy measures are taken, but this takes time and effort)
- Compatible hardware: PC wins
- Maintainability: Mac wins (the OS tends to have very few issues, and doesn't need much maintenance at all - in fact, I have yet to encounter an issue)
- Google Troubleshootability: PC wins
- Installation effort: Mac wins (open box, plug in, enter personal data, go - 5 minutes max)

That's a thoroughly fair post, but I'd switch at least one thing, albeit based on a bit of a cheat:

Available software: Mac wins; install Parallels/VMWare + a Windows licence, enable coherence/equivalent, run Mac, Windows and X11 software together seamlessly on the same desktop.

If you're approaching it from a purely hardware-to-buy point of view, that's relevant. If you want to turn it into a Microsoft versus Apple fight as per the original piece of idiotic journalism then obviously it isn't.

That's the same experience I've had with both of the PCs I've bought.

I guess the argument is that once you're installing extra software to match functionality (be it free or commercial), the PC becomes more installation effort? I guess the problem is that for the purposes of comparison it is fairest to assess various things separately from each other (hence, it is fair to say that a new Mac can run a wider range of software because it can also run Windows and to give it that point, since cost is a separate issue in that assessment), but in some cases the things overlap a little too much?

Yes, sometimes you get lucky, but other times, the "Recovery Solution" offered by your hardware vendor destroys the OS installation, or the operating system (Vista in my case) takes a full 15 minutes before booting into a useable state, after which all sorts of configuration settings must be made.

Hm, no, I rather meant that on a Mac, the chances are much higher that the system reaches a useable state within a few minutes after unpacking. The extra software point is an additional plus for the Mac, but only if the pre-installed packages are the ones you need.

My point is mainly that virtually all important factors turn out to be a draw or a "matter of taste" scenario; at the very least, none of the two platforms is ultimately "better" than the other, it depends on personal needs and preferences.

oh, you two are just gay for macs, admit it.

Shush! I haven't told my parents yet...

EDIT: incidentally, I am unable to find a machine that costs less than the current entry level MacBook which has equivalent hardware.

Thomas, it's not that you are unable to find, it's more that your appleised eyes are masking you the good places ;-)

Prove it.

Gimme the minimum price and specs.

Edit: just for the sake.

now... the pc part...
Pixmania, link 1
Pixmania, link 2
Pixmania, link 3

2Ghz Core 2 Duo, 1026Mhz FSB, 2 GB DDR2, NVidia 9400M, 120GB SATA, 13.3" 1280x800, Gigabit ethernet, Firewire, Wifi, Bluetooth. US$999. Trading numbers in one area for numbers in another is something real consumers would do, for the purposes of this entirely artificial game, it is not allowed. My own search has been thwarted by the GPU. It is more than likely that I just don't know where to look.

Apparently Ron Novy can get that machine for $499.50, but for argument's sake let's assume he isn't willing to act as a reseller.

EDIT: further, even if in some hypothetical world Macs and PCs had an exactly identical price at all times, I can still think of a million reasons why one might favour a PC. And I mean in no way to appear to argue otherwise. I just think the comparable specced machine price thing is a cheap shot that is far from accurate.

EDIT2: oh, and a million reasons why one might favour a Mac even if they were more expensive. Which is lucky.

Is that also some kind of English humour that I am unable to catch ? I wouldn't want to be mad, I just wanted to tease and chase you a little.

No, it's an honest admission that I'm quite probably looking in the wrong places. I really have no idea what the going rate is for computers nowadays, especially not in the international markets now that the UK£ is in freefall.

Well, everything is fine. It's the crisis, my dear.

I haven't really seen any. My Google fu is really weak in this area.

That's because the MacBooks are actually similarly priced as equivalent PC laptops.^[1] The MacBook Pros are reportedly more expensive (but I never tried to directly compare those).
PC fanboys like to claim Macs are significantly (50% or more) more expensive, but at least for the MacBooks this is a myth.

Anyway, this type of argument is ultimately silly, independent of from which side you approach it.

Once Apple switched to PC style hardware, prices did indeed come down.

Funny, my iBook G4 was also cheaper than PC laptops of similar size, speed, battery life and weight at the time. I was actually looking for the cheapest option at the time, and it turned out to be the iBook.

AviSynth. It's more difficult to learn than Movie Maker, but is a lot more feature packed.

Nero Vision works well enough, I never really explored its features other than removing sections of the video file.

Is that free though?

For just that sort of thing, VirtualDub is good, and fairly easy to use.

I've used VDub for various simple editing and conversion tasks in the past. It works well enough

A neutered version called Nero Vision express is, it misses a bunch of disk burning functionality. It was the reason I purchased Nero, rather than just use the copy that came with my dvd-rom, in the end, I don't think I ever used the full version of it.

Walmart sells brand new PCs for $300. Apple's cheapest computer is what, $600? That's twice as expensive.

Compare apples to apples you say? (Bad pun!) Tell that to the person who only has $300 to spend.

While we're on the subject of Macs vs. PCs, I'm really tired of the stereotype that Macs are "good for graphics editing." The last time I checked, Photoshop runs just as nicely on a PC as it does on a Mac. In fact, I like the PC version better because on the Mac version I keep clicking through to the desktop accidentally on the Mac version. (The mouse is another subject of my rage, but at least you can swap it out.)

They were good (better than PCs anyway) 15 years ago, but PCs have caught up. It's in the same league as "Macs are too expensive".

Apple doesn't make cheap computers. I'm sure you're aware that the comparison is meaningless if you're not comparing like with like. I'm also sure you're aware that someone who only has $300 deciding that he can't afford a Mac has no bearing on the question of whether Macs are relatively expensive or not.

Eh?
I don't understand. Then again, all my Macs have been laptops and I've grown used to using the trackpads, so maybe that makes a difference.

Do Macs still come with a one button mouse?

No. At least, the mouse is two-button, and software-configurable to use both buttons. I think the default configuration is both left- and right-click act as left-click.

My macbook's touchpad has only one button... you can hold control for a right click, or put two fingers on the pad and click, also for a right click.

You mean the ever less fashionable multiple-document interface used by a million Windows 3.1 applications and ever fewer since versus floating toolbars aplenty and a bunch of separate toolbarless document windows? On CS3 onwards you can pick either.

Then you checked poorly. At present, Photoshop runs better on a PC than a Mac in at least one important respect; as of CS4 it's a 64bit application on Windows only. I assume that gives the OS X version a lower image size limit. The reason for this is that several of the legacy libraries on OS X won't be heading into the 64bit world.

To be honest though, given that Microsoft have decided to try to kill Adobe's Flash and PDF markets, I wouldn't be surprised if the quality of their software for the Windows platform goes rapidly downhill.

Cost of entry is a separate discussion to like-for-like pricing, and therefore quite separate to the topic we were discussing. Further to that, I don't think it was incorrect to ignore the issue for the time being, given that the direct comparison was begun by a category-by-category discussion.

If conflating issues were the purpose of the conversation, then I could say that $300 isn't enough to buy you the version of Windows Vista with all features included. However, it will buy you licences for the full version of OS X and of Apple's consumer and professional targetted application suites that allow installation on five computers on the same site.

Or do a two-finger tap if you have tap-to-click and two-finger tapping enabled. But the clicks that occur from touchpad taps are "instantaneous", so while all event-based software such as every GUI application will function, most Allegro (4.2 and earlier) games won't since they operate on discretely sampling the current state of the mouse buttons and hoping not to miss any changes.

Or get a real laptop that has TrackPoint.

In about 1 minute of research I found this

• Intel® Core™2 Duo @ 2GHZ

• 800 FSB

• 3GB RAM (They don't sell 2 anymore)

• 320 GB HDD (double yours)

• NVIDIA® GeForce™ 8400M GS

• Bluetooth

$924 ^[1]

I'll keep looking...

While I'm looking, I'd like to point out that Apple's "Nice" Macbooks are very easily beat.

I think Nvidia has very low adoption in the laptop market. I keep finding all these news articles about how nvidia screwed up and pissed of HP, Dell and probably others.

$774.99 or $24/month

I mean that whereas Photoshop on Windows has a gray background that prevents you from clicking outside of the application when it's maximized, Photoshop on the Mac does not. On the Mac version I accidentally click in what would be the gray area on the Windows version, and Photoshop loses focus to the desktop or to whatever window is behind it.

As an example, the computer art department at my school bought Macs specifically because they thought Photoshop and other Adobe applications would perform better on them. We're still using CS3.

Our school's Macs came with odd mice that have one button, yet you can do both left and right clicks with them depending on which side of the button you press down. This leads to many left clicks when you wanted right clicks and many right clicks when you wanted left clicks.

Yeah you can't play games with those. You end up with crazy theories of how best to click the right button by putting your hand in awkward positions. Whatever you do though, eventually right click stops working. Frustrating as hell in Starcraft. It probably contributed to me losing many games.

Yes, clearly you're comparing like with like by comparing that HP computer and the MacBook there. Clearly, "2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo" = "Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual-Core Mobile Processor T4200 (2.0 GHz)", "2GB DDR3 Memory" = "2GB DDR2 System Memory" and a 14" display is the same as a 12" display. Oh, and I'm sure a "250GB hard drive" and a "160GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive with HP ProtectSmart Hard Drive Protection" can store the same amount of data. Can't comment on the weight or the build of the case since you didn't provide information on the HP for that, but since you're not actually comparing like with like it hardly matters.

Nice try, but all you've shown is that there are PC laptops that are cheaper than Apple laptops. We knew that.

This is hardly a fair criticism of Macs, wouldn't you agree?

Ah, those! I never used one of them for very long, but I can imagine they take some getting used to.

When making comparisons, remember: the fact that something is different doesn't mean it's worse.

Likewise, I could dismiss any claims you make about Apple's pricing by saying, "All you've shown that a mass produced model by Apple with set hardware costs the same as PC laptop custom modified from its original specs to match Apple's laptop."

Apple takes Ford's approach: "You can buy a car in any color you want, as long as it's black!"

What matters is if you are able to buy a computer that has the power you need for a price you can afford. So if you have $500, every Apple computer is too expensive. But if your budget is $1500, then you can build the best Apple laptop and the best PC laptop and compare them.

Considering that's exactly what I claim, I don't see how you come to think that's a dismissal.

Yes. So is a PC laptop with the exact same specifications (if, as asserted, these actually cost the same).
Again, you can get PC laptops that are cheaper than Mac laptops. That isn't the same thing as saying Macs are overpriced.

Just did a quick price check:

A 13" MacBook with 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM, and 250GB HD costs $1700. The same screen/CPU/RAM/HD on a Dell was $1530.

My point is (as illustrated above) if you need to deviate away from Apple's base hardware on the lowest end model, you quickly start to overpay when compared to similar PCs. So yes, Apple hardware becomes overpriced as you move up the ladder.

But with a PC, you can buy from many vendors and are much more likely to find good deals regardless of the specs.

I was never criticizing Macs for this reason. I'm criticizing the Mac version of Photoshop for this failure.

Is it this horrible abomination? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Mighty_Mouse

It's just awful.

Yes Mighty Mouse's are just awful.

The quoted models are meant to be compared to this model:

I wasn't able to find an exact replica but I got pretty close. The HP was... what like $240 cheaper? $215 cheaper. This makes it a 28% markup or a 22% discount. ^[1]

I apologize for the confusion. The more expensive model was a completely separate point.

Even though I agree with you, you must admit the laptop isn't even close at all. Pentium Dual Core vs Core2 Duo is a pretty huge difference.

Ok... So I may have spoken too soon with my post about 50% price difference, but about 6 months ago that's the conclusion I came to when comparing the laptops offered at best buy. They don't seem to carry the latest products right away so I'm sure it's an inventory thing.

I could say that Mac hardware is more expensive, but it would be a lie. I don't believe it's the hardware that you're paying extra for, but the other services they provide when you purchase a Mac. As for what those would be I have no clue... I never went that far into my research or comparisons...

Note that the NVidia 9400M is a Mac only name it goes by something slightly different for other brands which is I believe NVidia 9400M G. I've found only one laptop that offered something similar (9300M) but it actually had two graphics chips and not one... The Sony Z series apparently has an NVIDIA® GeForce® 9300M GS and an Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 4500MHD with Intel® Clear Video....

Yes.

What services? They charge you for calling tech support, for crying out loud.

On the contrary, and as BAF says, you found a machine that is a little worse for a little cheaper and a machine that is a lot worse for a lot cheaper. You essentially make the same point Matthew does, which is valid but separate, specifically the bit about Apple's range noting cover the same ground as the range of available PCs at the low end.

My point on the price topic would be: if at least one Apple machine is priced much the same as equivalently specified PCs then it is clearly false to conclude that anyone who uses an Apple has paid extra for the privilege. That it is Apple's most popular machine (cause and effect no doubt being relevant) may even suggest that it is unlikely.

Sorry, I was obviously unclear. Photoshop has a Windows look as an option, it just isn't the default. Check it out:

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EDIT: the only good thing about the Might Mouse is the scroll ball. Note: ball, not wheel; it's two dimensional. Note also: "the only good thing about <object X> is <property Y>" is a valid construction irrespective of the uniqueness of property Y.

I'll have to look for that option next time I'm in art class!
Is it unique to CS4, or is it present in CS3 as well?

I do like Apple's trackpads too, multitouch and their 2D scrolling (instead of a stupid scroll bar at the side) is nice. Too bad I may never buy an Apple notebook again though, due to the atrocious keyboards they use on all models now.

I liked that ball at first but it got annoying very quickly. The sideways scroll only works if you do it at just the right angle. So basically it rarely works. The idea was great but it was implemented horribly.

Oh that is a bunch of crap. The Dell is dead close to the Apple laptop and has more stuff in it than the Apple (twice the hard drive, for instance).

Matching a machine spec for spec is 1) Silly, with little practical use and 2) biased towards the first machine.

To prove my point, find a comparable machine from Apple:

• STUDIO 15 $649

• Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T6400 (2.0GHz/800Mhz FSB/2MB cache) 32-bit

• SP1 Size: 250GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)

• 3GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 800MHz

It has half the CPU. That is a pretty major thing there that heavily influences price. Nobody is arguing that Apple doesn't have cheap laptops. The argument was that their laptops aren't marked up by 100% or anything insane like that (I guess).

• Intel® Core™2 Duo @ 2GHZ

• 2Ghz Core 2 Duo

Aren't these the exact same thing?

The one you posted had an Intel Pentium T4200, not a Core2 Duo.

I have fuller comments that will have to wait; for now I shall just point out that he did post a Core 2 Duo machine. He matched clock speeds but plumped for a lower FSB and a reduced cache.

IMO, FSB speed and cache are far more relevant than actual CPU speed. Sheer number crunching is seldom the bottleneck in typical applications; memory access performance is a more likely candidate.

Indeed, thats why I paid an extra $150 for my 6MB L2 cache and a few hundred extra mhz. The stock cpu for my laptop is a 1MB L2 cache cpu.. Very lame. Next one up was a passable 3MB, but They had the option for the 6MBL2, so I got it

You're saying things that I don't understand, but which sound as though they would be interesting to learn.

I'm so ignorant of hardware.

Are you sure you're actually interested? It is rather dry and boring.

the cache is where the CPU CACHES data from memory, and devices. It can also be used for other functions, but generally its just a really fast local cache of ram. You might think ram is fast, but its darn slow compared to the cpu and cache. More cache means less trips to ram (or even worse, disk ), which means the cpu can stay busy longer. Though too much cache can be a downside too, generally, the more memory there is, the higher the latency to access it, which means its slower So theres a balancing act.

append:

So can someone try and match up my new purchase with an equivalent Apple laptop?

ThinkPad SL500
Intel Core2Duo T9400 @ 2.53Ghz 6MB L2 cache
1x2GB PC2-5300
1x160G 5400rpm disk
802.11bg wifi
GbE lan
9 cell LiIon battery
LED backlit 15.4 WXGA LCD

Cost about $994 cad including taxes.

If you're a computer science major, you will learn all about this in a "Topics of Computing" or "Computer Organization" type of class.

Not necessarily. I know several computer sacience majors that were never taught anything about hardware. The university I was at didn't have a hardware component to the computer science courses when I was there, though they do now.

I think that class you're talking about is a Software Engineering course, not a "Computer Science" major.

Sorry not to let the thread die as it looked like it had several days ago, but for the purposes of not appearing to ignore Dustin:

Repeating what I've said with expletives doesn't make something "your point".

I posted two

You caught me.

Regardless, you deviated from your previous point by saying:

You said my machine was "worse."

After think about this article a little bit, I think the only kinds computer software I have ever bought are OS and games. Nothing else, ever. I don't pirate stuff either. So... oh well. I know the topic has moved on a bit; and we all agree that the article is bogus.

edit

I know a few people who use to have that mouse... the scroll ball jammed up in all of them so that it didn't work at all.

Know what helps? Two main things, wash your hands regularly, and clean the mouse once in a while

Thanks, Thomas. I'll go inform these friends that their mouse broke because they are unclean. Although, I don't think they'll care much about that anymore as the dysfunctional mouses (mice?) have been replaced with new ones that don't have that problem.

The plural is best said as "mouse devices"

How ever they wish to take the advice is up to them. But most people never clean their mouse. and many people will happily eat snacks at the computer. gunk on your hands means gunk in the mouse.

Everybody knows it's "meeses."

Based on poor reading of the spec you posted originally, hence my unreasoned dismissal, but I would argue that a slower CPU (on account of a 25% reduction in FSB and 33% reduction in cache, though the internal clock speeds are the same) and a probably slower graphics card (by, ummmm, 1000 — I've really no idea how GPU numbering works, but I assume an 8400M is a bit slower than a 9400M) are a sufficient impediment to make a machine "worse" in the sense of less valuable notwithstanding substantial improvements in storage, especially as storage can be upgraded.

Anyway, the original point was just that there is at least one major Apple machine for which they are not charging a significant mark-up. That they offer nothing like the range of any other major manufacturer, let alone all the other manufacturers put together, is obviously conceded.