Left 4 Dead
Kibiz0r

;D;D;D;D;D

The demo came out yesterday right before I had to go to work, but their servers were getting hammered hardcore so I couldn't play it until late last night. But it was well worth the wait.

Some highlights:

  • Teammate goes "Hey, I wanna save that little boy" and the rest of us shout "NO IT'S A WITCH" then proceed to witness his demise, followed by mine when I try to help him.

  • Me taking out a witch solo on Advanced difficulty.

  • Blowing up a huuuuuge mob of zombies with a pipe bomb. (They are attracted to the beeps.)

  • Turned the corner and walked right into a boomer, then got totally raped by a tank.

  • Being one of two surviving teammates for the first level on Expert, with 1 health left.

</li>

So, anyone have the demo for PC?
Feel free to add me! I'll be playing all night, probably.

(My Steam is Kibiz0r, of course.)

someone972

Ah man, I don't think I'll be able to play it. My computer is well.. suboptimal. I don't meet pretty much all of the min requirements, especially the video card (min Geforce 6600, I have 4600). I need to get a new computer for gaming. Already I have tried a few deoms that haven't worked.

Kitty Cat

Doesn't seem there's a non-Steam version... is there?

Kibiz0r

Well, there's a version for the 360.

But non-Steam for PC... Not so much. Is it technical, or political differences, Kitty Cat?

Kitty Cat

Political, mostly. I won't install Steam on my system. There's no reason a game, a game demo at that, needs to require it (bad enough it requires Windows, but I at least have Wine to try it on).

Mokkan

My computer sure picked an awesome time to die :(. I've been looking forward to this game since it was announced...

OICW

Sounds cool. Unfortunatelly there's the same reason I won't play it any time soon as is for Fallout 3 - I'm missing such a powerfull machine. Plus basically what Kitty Cat said.

Matt Smith

I found Steam so annoying I gave away my HL2.

I have a slightly awesome machine now (am I still the only allegator with 1GB vram?) but it doesn't run Windows :) I'm still on honeymoon with Debian

ngiacomelli

The demo runs surprisingly smoothly for me. It's a lot of fun. Played through on Expert a few times and managed to get most of my team out. Perhaps my biggest gripe is the 'server-matching' system.

A few of us wanted to play a LAN game. To do that, we first had to search for available multiplayer servers, cancel that search, and then wait for the game to try to setup a local version. Not only that, we then had a few random people join the game (regardless of whether we set the game to Friends-only or not).

The fact that VALVe have already patched the demo is a good sign though. Hopefully we'll have a smooth roll-out of the entire game.

It's annoying having to restart a level segment after a failed attempt, but I've found it encourages cooperative teamwork. After a few restarts people usually realise it's best to stick together. At present the microphone on my headset is bust - and I don't advise stopping to type out suggestions or orders ;). In fact, it seems the Director system doesn't like anyone idling. If you try to secure an area, or camp out for too long, you're just asking for trouble.

It's also genuinely terrifying to hear the scream of a handful of the undead, and then see them barrel through a doorway heading straight for you.

Quote:

I found Steam so annoying I gave away my HL2.

I've been a fan of Steam since inception. It's a wonderful way for me to purchase and maintain my games. Steam Cloud (which has been rolled out via L4D) is a welcome feature addition, also.

Thomas Fjellstrom
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The fact that VALVe have already patched the demo is a good sign though.

Id actually call that a bad sign :P sure its great they are supporting the software, but it shouldn't NEED a patch so soon. Its a sign of shitty development and testing practices.

ngiacomelli
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Id actually call that a bad sign :P sure its great they are supporting the software, but it shouldn't NEED a patch so soon. Its a sign of shitty development and testing practices.

I'd say that's rubbish. We all know that development within the gaming industry works to tight deadlines (which usually results in rushed products). To release a game to an audience of that size and then have issues with scalability is totally understandable. Now, something like Apple's MobileMe, on the other hand...

Thomas Fjellstrom

I don't care about their deadlines. They will use any excuse and tactic to release as early as possible, even going so far as to effect quality and stability. Ever since they started releasing patches as often as they do, they've used it as just another way to get the game out sooner. Even if its broken, they don't care they can always just "fix it later" if they feel like it.

They are taking advantage of their customers. Expecting them to deal with unstable and unfinished products just to get a jump on the release date. Its bullshit.

X-G

Speaking as someone working in the games industry... all I can say is don't blame the developers. Marketing tends to make promises that development can't deliver on, and then we're left with the choice of cutting down on quality or telling them to go screw themselves (which doesn't help anyway because you still have to do it).

Thomas Fjellstrom

Oh I blame the publishers. If that happens to be the same people as the developers, I don't care.

gnolam
Thomas Fjellstrom said:

even going so far as to effect quality and stability.

I'd say that's desirable! ;)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Quote:

I'd say that's desirable! ;)

You are mistaken ;) What they do is release what should be a pre-beta on release day, and fix it up later. Sure, fixing it later is good, but it shouldn't be released broken ::)

X-G
effect
     v 1: cause to happen or occur; "The scientists set up a
          shockwave" [syn: effectuate, bring about, set up]

Thomas Fjellstrom

Nice Mr. picky. Just stay ontopic ::)

ngiacomelli
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Ever since they started releasing patches as often as they do

I think it's a double-edged sword. The Internet has allowed publishers and developers to support games long past the point of release. At the same time, bugs and glitches that would otherwise never present themselves to the casual user are now discussed and dissected by extremists and fanatics.

The fact of the matter is this: Left4Dead is a solid product. The server matching system worked out of the box, but came under a bit of stress around the point of release due to the volume of interest surrounding the demo. If I were management and saw that the game worked, and was entertaining, I'd have done the exact same thing. Now they have just under two weeks to iron out the inevitable kinks before pushing the full version of the game.

VALVe, I believe, are one of the few publisher/developer combos that still have the freedom to really say, 'it's done when it's done'. They take the time to make products that both innovate and interest them. Otherwise we'd already have a plethora of 'official' Portal level packs and expansions, given the commercial success of the first game.

Kibiz0r
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There's no reason a game, a game demo at that, needs to require it (bad enough it requires Windows, but I at least have Wine to try it on).

I'm not going to debate the merits of Steam itself, but they put a lot of new features in the platform just for this game, it would be silly to strip them all out to deliver a likely broken and lackluster demo.

Besides, Steam is part of their business model, why wouldn't they want to use the free demo as a carrot-on-a-stick?

Matt Smith

There was no obvious way to turn Steam off. That was my big complaint at the time. Apart from that it's no worse than any other package manager. I have suggested writing something similar for selling Allegro games, but nobody offered to write the back end :)

Kitty Cat
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I'm not going to debate the merits of Steam itself, but they put a lot of new features in the platform just for this game, it would be silly to strip them all out to deliver a likely broken and lackluster demo.

I have no problem with them having a version that uses Steam. I just don't see why it should have to be a requirement. I mean, if they release a non-Steam version then you get both groups.. the people that would buy it because of Steam, and the people that wouldn't buy it because of Steam. It doesn't have to be one or the other (Steam or no Steam), it can be both.

Besides which, Steam is an internet distribution platform. It does not play the game (in the sense of a VM, or even Wine). When the game is launched, Steam is (supposed to be) suspended.. so how would the game's quality be reduced if Steam isn't doing anything while it's running anyway?

Kibiz0r
Quote:

Besides which, Steam is an internet distribution platform. It does not play the game (in the sense of a VM, or even Wine). When the game is launched, Steam is (supposed to be) suspended.. so how would the game's quality be reduced if Steam isn't doing anything while it's running anyway?

Uh, have you ever used Steam?

MiquelFire

EEK! GeForce 6600 is pushing on my limits! Soon my computer won't handle these games! And considering I need to basically buy a whole new system to do worth while upgrades... ($1200 min last I checked for the level of power I want out of my next machine)

And this appears to be another FPS... beh...

Kitty Cat
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Uh, have you ever used Steam?

This is what I'm told. One of more common complaints about Steam is it running in the background needlessly while playing (CPU/GPU intensive) games, and we're always told, "No, Steam isn't doing anything while you're playing! It just gets swapped out!" (despite swap being a finite resource..).

So, which is it? Is it doing something and taking up valuable processing time, or is it not doing anything and taking up unnecessary resources?

Mokkan

It has a friends system and an ingame overlay... and there's the Steam Community stuff. Probably some other stuff I'm missing.

I don't mind Steam at all. It has its ups and downs... like everything else.

Kibiz0r

What Mokkan said. And now that Left 4 Dead is out, it's got matchmaking. It's basically Xbox Live, but for free.

Kitty Cat
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It has a friends system and an ingame overlay... and there's the Steam Community stuff.

So not only is it running, it actually interferes with the game. :-/ And I'm already in enough "communities" (message boards, IRC, IMs), so I don't need to be in touch with even more people..

I won't say Steam is all bad.. it's a good idea, just implemented badly. This just ends up reflecting badly on the game itself when it's a requirement.

Kibiz0r
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it's a good idea, just implemented badly.

Obviously, you speak from experience.

Kitty Cat
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Obviously, you speak from experience.

I don't see anyone saying my problems with it aren't real. Does it not provide heavy-handed DRM? Does it not run when it's not needed? Does it not require itself to be running to play some of the games?

Edgar Reynaldo
Quote:

I won't say Steam is all bad.. it's a good idea, just implemented badly. This just ends up reflecting badly on the game itself when it's a requirement.

I have to agree. I would prefer if Steam was a supplemental component as opposed to an integral one. I've never used Steam myself, but that's also part of the reason for not using things like that. What's wrong with leaving the game separate anyway?

Kibiz0r

I thought the whole reason we were against DRM because the companies were failing to change with the times and taking it out on the consumer. Steam is example of someone doing it right, and you're shunning them?

Isn't it useful to have an "obtrusive interface" (which, by the way, doesn't show unless you hit shift-tab) to let you IM etc. in-game?

Don't you want to see what games your friends are playing and be able to join them with one click?

I like that I don't have to keep track of a billion CD keys and not have to fish out the discs or find a decent torrent just to install the game. It's also nice only having to remember one username/password and all my buddies' usernames.

The fact that they put indie games right next to the big titles is pretty nice, too.

What's your solution, though? What would be acceptable in place of Steam? Cuz if they use the usual model, they probably can't do the cheap-as-hell deals they usually do.

Kitty Cat
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I thought the whole reason we were against DRM because the companies were failing to change with the times and taking it out on the consumer. Steam is example of someone doing it right, and you're shunning them?

Not letting the consumer play the game unless they can verify with remote servers (and if said remote servers aren't available, no-go) is right, now?

Quote:

Isn't it useful to have an "obtrusive interface" (which, by the way, doesn't show unless you hit shift-tab) to let you IM etc. in-game?

Generally when I want to play a game, I want to play a game, not IM people. And the times I do, I just run windowed and leave my IM/IRC client open.

Quote:

Don't you want to see what games your friends are playing and be able to join them with one click?

I don't play multiplayer games much. And those that do, I tend to prefer coop, playing only with said friends (ie. not on public servers).

Quote:

I like that I don't have to keep track of a billion CD keys and not have to fish out the discs or find a decent torrent just to install the game.

The solution, then, is to get rid of CD keys and CD checks. :P If I have a CD, I know I can try to install it at any time. Without, I can only install it if they'll let me get a copy (and then have to take the time to download).

Quote:

The fact that they put indie games right next to the big titles is pretty nice, too.

That is nice (Portage, Gentoo's package manager, does this too, BTW).

Quote:

What's your solution, though? What would be acceptable in place of Steam? Cuz if they use the usual model, they probably can't do the cheap-as-hell deals they usually do.

Get rid of the built-in DRM, and let the app run without having to run Steam, too. At that point, I would consider installing Steam (though I would still only buy a particular game depending on the availability of a physical copy and amount of copy-protection on it). Steam can be there to manage game patches, provide access to free/demo downloads, or even be able to download a copy if I'm missing my CD.

X-G

Quote:

Not letting the consumer play the game unless they can verify with remote servers (and if said remote servers aren't available, no-go) is right, now?

You can play games in offline mode after authenticating once (and you need to do that anyway to download the game in the first place :P).

Steam has its shortcomings (a few of which I hate), but as far as inherently-evil-DRM solutions go, Steam is by far not the worst of the bunch.

Kitty Cat
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You can play games in offline mode after authenticating once (and you need to do that anyway to download the game in the first place :P).

I guess I'm just one of those crazies that prefers installing from a CD, instead (I prefer having a physical copy, and if I have one, I'm not going to want to take the time to download a multi-gigabyte install; especially since I have an oh-so-lovely monthly cap now). For single-player games or private multi-player connections, I should not have to connect to them to "verify" I'm not a criminal (not that it does very well in verifying those that are criminals :P).

Quote:

as far as inherently-evil-DRM solutions go, Steam is by far not the worst of the bunch.

True, but that doesn't mean it's good or should be acceptable. A 5-install-limit isn't good or acceptable just because it could be a 3-install-limit. Unnecessary online connectivity to verify my innocence shouldn't be good or acceptable just because it could have an install limit.

X-G

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I should not have to connect to them to "verify" I'm not a criminal

Uh, if you're not actually getting the game from Steam in the first place then obviously you don't need to authenticate with it. What's the problem?

Kitty Cat
Quote:

Uh, if you're not actually getting the game from Steam in the first place then obviously you don't need to authenticate with it.

So if I buy a boxed copy of a game that requires me to install Steam (which is kind of dumb-sounding in itself), I won't have to connect when I try to install/run it?

Mokkan

I can't get the demo to install :(. I went to the page in the Steam browser and clicked install, and the button doesn't do anything...

EDIT: Oh I see. I need to pre-order.

X-G

Quote:

So if I buy a boxed copy of a game that requires me to install Steam (which is kind of dumb-sounding in itself), I won't have to connect when I try to install/run it?

I think it depends on the game in question. I think the Orange Box does require a Steam account, but I don't think that goes for third-party games.

OICW

It was enough to hear those problems when HL2 came out. Lots of people bought a copy in stone store and were unpleasantly surprised that they need an internet connection, where they haven't any or dial-up to which Steam isn't friendly.

And I was very disappointed to realise that I won't be able to play HL2 on holiday w/o internet connection. So that meant change of plans (holiday won and HL2 as well, still no internet...).

Plus basicaly those features you all just said - like IM conversation, friends, other people knowing what you play. Some are unnecessary and some smell like Big Brother is watching over your shoulder.

So no Steam for me.

X-G

Quote:

And I was very disappointed to realise that I won't be able to play HL2 on holiday w/o internet connection.

Wait, that's not true; as long as you have authenticated online once, you can play offline as much as you want.

OICW
Quote:

Wait, that's not true; as long as you have authenticated online once, you can play offline as much as you want.

Allright, I haven't known this one. Anyway I still have to authenticate even if I buy a copy in stone store. Which is kinda awkward when you don't have internet access.

Edgar Reynaldo

I'd take a CD key in a manual's back cover over having to authenticate online anyday.

ngiacomelli
Quote:

I'd take a CD key in a manual's back cover over having to authenticate online anyday.

Print is a dying medium. I'm willing to bet you won't have much of a choice in a few years or so.

OICW
Quote:

Print is a dying medium. I'm willing to bet you won't have much of a choice in a few years or so.

I wouldn't say that. Personally I don't like reading books on computer display. And so many other people. Regarding the choice - you can restrain from buying it. And since most recent games are all about graphics and gameplay seems to be forgotten, not to mention that play time hardly exceeds 10 hours.

ngiacomelli
Quote:

Personally I don't like reading books on computer display.

I completely agree, it's horrible. I'm fantatical about books. But that doesn't change the fact that the medium is dying.

Hard Rock
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Wait, that's not true; as long as you have authenticated online once, you can play offline as much as you want.

Technically they will force you to reconnect every x days, I'm not sure of the exact number but it is somewhere in the up to a month range.

Sirocco
Quote:

Print is a dying medium. I'm willing to bet you won't have much of a choice in a few years or so.

Buy it. Crack it. Problem solved. When I buy games I crack them, because the only thing more annoying than DRM is DRM when you've actually paid for the game.

ngiacomelli

I have no real issues with limited installation DRM solutions. You can install the game a set number of times and are given an install back to that number when you uninstall.

Sure, it's not perfect. But if it keeps publishers interested in the PC market, I'm all for it. Ironically, most leaked game titles hit the console markets first these days, anyway.

I would have absolutely no problem with DRM solutions if more publishers used a 'hot potato' policy (my own terminology, there). Whereby: a game is secured via DRM and given limited installations/online activation for period of a few years or so, and is then unlocked for archive purposes.

That said, I'm not a fan of rootkits and other nasty implementations.

Kibiz0r
bamccaig

Steam is an incredibly successful platform. There are the occasional hiccups, as there are with any platform, but for the most part it's a pleasant experience. As for Steam running when you don't need it, you can configure it to not run when the computer starts up IIRC (or if not you can open the registry and delete the entry manually). You can also kill it when you don't need it. Steam does not have to run all the time. It only needs to run when you're playing a Steam game and when you launch such a game you launch it through Steam so Steam will start up automatically.

For those people without an Internet connection, you don't exist on this online forum. :P If you don't have an Internet connection that's unfortunate, but offline solutions are considerably more vulnerable, so it makes sense to protect your game with an online solution... As for downloading when you have physical medium, why the fsck would you do that? IIRC, you can install Steam games (and Steam itself) from physical media. You would then authenticate with Steam before playing the games. As already mentioned, it is possible to play in offline mode, though I'm not sure about the details because I'm always online. ;)

As for Left 4 Dead, I haven't really looked into it much... I've seen the news on Steam, but I'm pretty busy ATM with Dead Space and LittleBigPlanet so I don't think I'm going for Left 4 Dead any time soon.

LennyLen

As a sales platform, I like the idea of Steam, but every other aspect of it makes me shudder. I don't play gams online so I wouldn't want any of its features, and having to run a background program just so that my games will run feels wrong to me. Luckily for me, there hasn't been a single game I've wanted to play that uses it.

Trent Gamblin

You have to buy the game to get the demo... brilliant. And why are there so many games released these days without demos? I'm not paying $50 for a game that potentially won't even run on my system.

LennyLen
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And why are there so many games released these days without demos?

That's a very good question. The only game I've wanted to buy recently is Red Alert 3, for which there's no demo. I almost went out and bought it pre-release, but the only reason I didn't was that I had limited funds, and the RA3 site doesn't even list minimum specifications (my machine is less than a year old, so I figured it would be ok, but you never know).

After the release I read a few comments about how poorly it was running for many people so I ended up downloading a cracked version of the game to see if it would run. It does, but only at minimal graphics settings. This made it so ugly and with such a poor limit of vision that I consider it unplayable.

I'm glad now that I didn't have a lot of money, or I would have pre-ordered it, and wasted $120.00.

Hard Rock
Quote:

You have to buy the game to get the demo... brilliant. And why are there so many games released these days without demos? I'm not paying $50 for a game that potentially won't even run on my system.

The excuse is that the demo lets crackers make releases faster and easier for the retail game so they prefer not to release one.

They also sometimes release demos after the game is released now since it takes too much work to make the demo in time for launch.

Trent Gamblin

That's what they did with bioshock. I tried the demo recently and got no sound. If I had bought the game when they released it I would be SOL.

Kitty Cat
Quote:

Sure, it's not perfect. But if it keeps publishers interested in the PC market, I'm all for it.

Does it, though? Publishers have to know DRM like this doesn't work. They have to know it turns consumers off of PC games. What do you think will happen as more people get fed up with the crap they're given with PC games when they can simply get the same game for their console and not deal with it? They'll get the console version over the PC version, PC game sales will decline (all the while publishers are crying "zomg piracy!!1"), and publishers/developers will move away from PCs.

It does more harm to the future of PC gaming than it helps.

Quote:

As for Steam running when you don't need it, [...] It only needs to run when you're playing a Steam game and when you launch such a game you launch it through Steam so Steam will start up automatically.

Thank you for proving my point. :P I know it can be set up to not run when the computer logs in. I don't want it running at all when I'm playing a game and I don't want it. It doesn't provide anything I need, and only gives me what I don't.

Mokkan

Here's the thing... Steam makes it easy for me to buy games. Steam makes it easy for me to play games. I do not have to worry about not being able to play games if I buy them through Steam. How does any of this hurt the PC market?

OICW
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Steam makes it easy for me to play games.

What's easier on clicking on Steam icon, logging in, waiting for update download, searching for a game inside Steam and then playing it against simply clicking on icon and playing the game?

Anyway I wonder how Steam supporst offline play, where you have to log in and select from inside the Steam. I mean there's already software for online play - Gamespy Arcade.

Yes piracy is a problem, however things like Steam are working as a bait for piracy. There are so many people dissappointed with it, that they rather get cracked copy than to let themselves chicaned by something like that.

Kitty Cat
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I do not have to worry about not being able to play games if I buy them through Steam.

Not everyone is so lucky. If I can't run it without Steam, it's just one more unnecessary thing in the chain that can break down and fail, rendering the app useless. The builtin DRM is what keeps me from installing Steam.

The first thing I'd like to see is the built-in DRM go. I wouldn't mind installing Steam then, and could just get demos or games that I can't get physical copies of, which don't require Steam running when they play. Any game that wants to implement its own DRM, I could weed out and choose on a game-by-game basis.

Kibiz0r
Quote:

You have to buy the game to get the demo... brilliant.

Only if you wanted to play the demo a week early. The public demo comes out in a few hours, and they're still a week away from full release.

Given that they have a new server setup and twice as many preorders as for the Orange Box, I don't think it's unreasonable to release it to a smaller crowd first before it goes totally public.

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The builtin DRM is what keeps me from installing Steam.

The DRM of Steam is solely the fact that you are logged in to Steam. That is the verification that you own the game. How is this different from any online game where you make an account?

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If I can't run it without Steam, it's just one more unnecessary thing in the chain that can break down and fail, rendering the app useless.

The things in Steam are going to be in the game one way or another. It's just a question of whether it's one-shot code that wasn't ever thoroughly tested or if it's the same code that's in hundreds of other games. Of course, it's anyone's guess as to which is more bug-prone and which is more likely to get fixed when it breaks.

Kitty Cat
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The DRM of Steam is solely the fact that you are logged in to Steam. That is the verification that you own the game. How is this different from any online game where you make an account?

Not all games are online games. :P The vast majority of games I play aren't online, so I would have to go out of my way to connect to Steam and do whatever the hell it wants before I can play most games I would get. It's only "not a problem" for people because the app forces launches Steam for you, and does it all automatically. But just because it's done automatically doesn't mean the problems of it doing it at all are gone.

Until Steam loses the ability to refuse to start a game because it's not logged in, it's not even a consideration. Then once any given app can be run without having Steam running, we'll talk.

Quote:

The things in Steam are going to be in the game one way or another.

I don't think many games would bother with implementing an IM client when users will already have one. But as I said, having something like Steam to manage game updates, provide demos, etc.. that's all fine. It's just the things that I don't want and can't get rid of that are the problem.

Albin Engström

Wasn't the public demo supposed to be relesed today?

It clearly says so on their webbsite, I guess they live in on of the "last" timezones. >:(

bamccaig
Kitty Cat said:

It's just the things that I don't want and can't get rid of that are the problem.

Whoever said companies do this strictly for your benefit? It's also for theirs. Steam provides sales statistics, anti-piracy mechanisms, automated updates, etc. A lot of it is to make their lives (and the lives of their third party developers) easier as well as to make the gamers' lives easier. They're not going to change the way Steam works for you; it was designed that way with a purpose and most people don't mind having to authenticate to play a game (most people that buy these games have an always-on Internet connection anyway). I actually prefer it. It keeps me connected to the publishers/developers as well as other gamers like myself.

Basically, your dislike of Steam sounds like a personal problem and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for VALVe to cater to you (who doesn't even sound like much of a gamer). The prices on Steam are unbeatable anywhere else and a part of that is probably because it's incredibly difficult to crack Steam games (it sounds like the physical media is encrypted and the executable is downloaded through Steam).

And it's no different then the PlayStation Store (which AFAIK you authenticate with through the PlayStation Network) and I'm sure the X-Box Marketplace or whateverthefsck is the same. So Steam isn't going to drive people away from the PC. It's offering the same service to PC gamers as console services now offer.

LennyLen
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They're not going to change the way Steam works for you

I'm sure KittyCat isn't naive enough to think they will. He's still allowed to say what he wants about why he doesn't like the system.

Likewise, I bet apple aren't going to change the way iTunes and QuickTime work just because you wrote a rant about them.

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who doesn't even sound like much of a gamer

I like the way you make it sound bad to not be a hard-core gamer. Since in your first paragraph you used the phrase most people, I'll use it too: most people aren't hard-core gamers, just (in most people's opinions) a few weird little freaks. ;)

MiquelFire

If it's anything like the stuff you buy on the Wii, once you buy something from PSN or Marketplace, your console doesn't need to be on-line to play the game (unless it is an on-line game)

If on-line access is required for a game that is not on-line, I would prefer for it to do the on-line stuff only once, and only if you uninstall the game would you require to go on-line again to play. There are times that your network gets messed up, and if you need to be on-line to play some single player game, you can't play it until the network is fixed or whatever. Would suck if you bought the game so you had something to play while you were off-line if it was common enough for some reason.

bamccaig
LennyLen said:

I'm sure KittyCat isn't naive enough to think they will. He's still allowed to say what he wants about why he doesn't like the system.

Likewise, I bet apple aren't going to change the way iTunes and QuickTime work just because you wrote a rant about them.

The difference is that my point is valid and his is not. :-[

MiquelFire said:

If it's anything like the stuff you buy on the Wii, once you buy something from PSN or Marketplace, your console doesn't need to be on-line to play the game (unless it is an on-line game)

If on-line access is required for a game that is not on-line, I would prefer for it to do the on-line stuff only once, and only if you uninstall the game would you require to go on-line again to play. There are times that your network gets messed up, and if you need to be on-line to play some single player game, you can't play it until the network is fixed or whatever. Would suck if you bought the game so you had something to play while you were off-line if it was common enough for some reason.

Take a look at Steam's offline mode. It seems to suggest that after the first time you no longer need to connect to the Steam Network to play.

FMC

Some of you people are silly. :P
Steam is actually something i'd like to see more games use, whenever i can choose between a dvd version and a steam version of the same game i prefer to buy the steam version.

Why? Because Steam is actually very practical, lightweight (you know it's running because you see the icon, otherwise you wouldn't notice) and unobtrusive. It makes me comfortable i won't loose my right to play the game even if i break or loose a cd, it automatically patches the games when needed, and usually it makes buying the game cheaper.
Furthermore having Steam on your computer actually protects you from Evil DRM protections. An example?
The DVD version of Fallout 3 comes with SecuROM one of the most evil DRM solutions out there, but if you buy it on Steam you get a version which is free of securom and thus doesn't have all the issues (conflict with all the software securom thinks is for pirates only... like nero :P) the dvd version has.

Jonatan Hedborg

What FMC said.

Kibiz0r

Damn it, FMC, that's what I've been trying to say this whole time. :-/

Sirocco
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Furthermore having Steam on your computer actually protects you from Evil DRM protections. An example?

Well, duh. Of course it does, because Steam is the DRM.

FMC
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Well, duh. Of course it does, because Steam is the DRM.

Yes, but not as evil as other DRMs.

MiquelFire

About the off-line thing with Steam, if your internet were to die on you (and dial-up is not an option), and you didn't put it in off-line mode before it died, you can't switch off-line mode because you need an internet connection, hence, until your internet comes back, you can't play any of your Steam games. (Though, if the only games you play are on-line only games like Team Fortress 2, then it may not matter you can't play you Steam games)

In my case, if something were to go wrong with my phone line (and my DSL is taken out it with), then the time I'm waiting for AT&T to get my line back, I can't play Portal or Autosurf.

Kibiz0r
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you can't switch off-line mode because you need an internet connection

Eh? You need to restart Steam, I think, but you don't need an internet connection to go into offline mode. That would be ridiculous!

Trent Gamblin

Ok, so they released the public demo today. Good for them. Seems like a really cool game from what little I've played. Is there a way to save? Did I miss something or is it disabled in the demo?

Kitty Cat
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Yes, but not as evil as other DRMs.

Such as "Sorry, you can't play this because I can't connect to our servers." and "Sorry, even though you bought it and physically have it, you can't play until a specific day of our choosing, which can be different for different people." and "Sorry, this is a copy from another country. You can't install/play it here."

It's sad to realize people think DRM is "okay" or "acceptible" these days because it doesn't limit your installs. I remember when people would be pissed about having to keep floppy disks in drives when they weren't actually needed. Frog in the boiling pot and all, I guess..

Sad thing is, they never stopped with disk checks regardless of how ineffectual they were (things like Steam just remove "disk" with "server"). They probably won't stop with what they're doing now, regardless of how ineffectual it is, and just pile more and more on top of it.

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Basically, your dislike of Steam sounds like a personal problem

Damn right. And it should be a personal problem for anyone that cares about the freedom of using their legally purchased media.

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it's incredibly difficult to crack Steam games (it sounds like the physical media is encrypted and the executable is downloaded through Steam).

Just an FYI.. I didn't have any issues installing and playing Half-Life 2 (in Wine, even, and I played through the whole game!). It was quick and easy to install and setup. And I don't have Steam. So... :P

Hard Rock
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Just an FYI.. I didn't have any issues installing and playing Half-Life 2 (in Wine, even, and I played through the whole game!). It was quick and easy to install and setup. And I don't have Steam. So.

Did you try playing online? I didn't think so. If you want to do that you have to us a fake authentication server, keep a few updates behind and play on cracked servers. Sounds really painless doesn't it?

In any case I can't take anything you say seriously. You haven't even tried steam yet you complain about it. I suppose you complain about food before you try it too? I imagine trying it wont change anything you have to say but at least you'll stop saying things like how steam isn't integrated or used in a game at all and then try to backtrack by pretending all the features it adds to the game you aren't going to use, so clearly it doesn't matter. Great. I guess game developers should remove extra levels and maps since you won't be playing those either huh?

If you want to complain about how terrible it is, use it first, then pretend that it did bad things to you (since we already know that's what you'll say) and complain about it after.

Kitty Cat
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Did you try playing online?

As I said, I'm not an online gamer. And even if I was, I would use a private server if at all possible since I don't like playing with random strangers (even if I had Steam).

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In any case I can't take anything you say seriously. You haven't even tried steam yet you complain about it.

You don't need to try dog crap to know it tastes like dog crap. :P Besides which, with all the DRM-related stuff I've brought up, no one's been able to refute it (except the constant-authentication thing; it does authenticate periodically and lock you out if it can't, it just doesn't do it every time). All I'm told is "it's not that bad," instead of "that's not how it works".

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at least you'll stop saying things like how steam isn't integrated or used in a game at all and then try to backtrack by pretending all the features it adds to the game you aren't going to use

If you actually read what I wrote, I said this is what people told me when I asked about it. I asked if Steam does anything while you're running a game, and I'm told "no, it's completely idle, taking up no resources." I then ask what value it has to a running game, and I'm told "well, it does this and this to the game so you can do all this while you're playing". If you want to complain that I'm being inconsistant, then at least complain to the people that are trying to sugar-coat Steam and giving inconsistant information.

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I guess game developers should remove extra levels and maps since you won't be playing those either huh?

If those extra levels don't ever prevent me from playing the other levels, there's no need to get rid of them. Bloat != unwanted functionality

EDIT:

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Furthermore having Steam on your computer actually protects you from Evil DRM protections.

Except when it doesn't. It's completely up to the original developer/publisher if they want to remove their own DRM in the Steam version. <a href=""http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26641367"">Not everyone is so gracious</a>. So with Steam, not only do you get Steam's DRM, but potentially also the DRM of the original game.

LennyLen
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If you want to complain about how terrible it is, use it first

The "Don't say something is bad if you haven't tried it" argumant is stupid. I've never tried wiping my ass with razorwire either, but I sure as hell know it would hurt.

Mokkan
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The "Don't say something is bad if you haven't tried it" argumant is stupid. I've never tried wiping my ass with razorwire either, but I sure as hell know it would hurt.

Sure. But I can't say that pizza tastes like shit if I've never tasted it. So basically, YOUR argument fails.

Timorg

Well technically it isn't idle, among anything evil it may be doing, (matter of opinion,) It also provides the following functionality, so if steam isn't running the following shouldn't work.

Achievement Tracking
Multi-player Authentication/Authorization
Matchmaking
Community Information (aka the little display icon next to your name in a multi-player game),
Networking api (sockets implementation that is NAT aware)
Valve Anti-Cheat
Voice
and DRM

Personally I have an always on internet connection, and my isp hosts a steam mirror, so all my downloads are not counted. I am willing to put up with DRM and steam taking resources, for actually being able to talk to my team members and not having to play against people that cheat. The Achievements are a nice feature, being able to see display pics really doesn't add anything to a game. I haven't played a game that required match making so I can't comment on that. I occasionally send messages on steam, to people that don't do dual screen, who are too lazy to alt-tab to talk to me elsewhere.

So steam doesn't just sit there eating resources (48,032K, sitting idle) while you play your game, it provides a lot of functionality, whether you want it or not. If these features are not important to you, well I guess steam possibly isn't for you. But saying all it does is provide DRM and eat resources, isn't accurate, and doesn't add anything to the argument. Just because you don't use those features, doesn't mean that other users don't want to use them.

Imagine from a developers point of view, you can't know what features a person has turned on and off, because they don't want particular things, having to check about each, its easier to force it on some users that don't want it, so that a developer can assume that all are available.

This is what steam provides at this point, these features may increase in the future, I am pretty sure the DRM isn't going to change.

Now onto my bias personal opinion, I remember in the early 90s going to a store and buying a top end computer game was still $70 (AUS), games have actually come down in price, if DRM can force the prices lower again, I will buy more games. I'm not the person to run off and get a hacked copy, I balance how much I want to play with how much it costs. Too expensive and I just won't play. Because I am always online anyway, the DRM in steam is unobtrusive, and the whole thing just works. So with the features that it provides, the cost of the DRM to me 0, I am more than happy to use steam and keep using steam. Why all of it needs to be loaded when its sitting in the system tray, I don't know, but I have 4gig of ram 48meg isn't that big a deal.

If you want these features in your allegro game, you can get it here Steamworks, but I am pretty sure it would kill cross platform compatibility. >:D The API and Libs are free, but not surprisingly it locks you to the steam platform.

Kitty Cat
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But saying all it does is provide DRM and eat resources, isn't accurate

I never said that's all it does. I just said that that's what needs to go for me to consider using Steam.

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Because I am always online anyway, the DRM in steam is unobtrusive, and the whole thing just works.

I'm sure people thought the same thing about the music purchased from Microsoft or Yahoo..

LennyLen
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Sure. But I can't say that pizza tastes like shit if I've never tasted it. So basically, YOUR argument fails.

If everyone else who has tasted it says it does, you can. Sure, you could be a stubborn prick and choose to not believe other people, but that's another matter.

Kibiz0r
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Sure, you could be a stubborn prick and choose to not believe other people

Isn't that what you're doing here?

Kitty Cat
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Isn't that what you're doing here?

See, the problem is I do believe other people. Steam has DRM, does it not? It can prevent you from running apps because it can't log in with remote servers, can it not? This is what people say, and I've seen this myself. No one is saying it doesn't do this. Don't get upset because I call a spade a spade. :P

LennyLen
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Isn't that what you're doing here?

No. While I don't like the idea of Steam, I'd use if there was a single game for the platform that looked interesting to me. I just know that I would turn most of the extra features off, as privacy is very important to me, and apart from Diablo, I haven't played a game online since Dune 2000 was new. I also wouldn't buy games online, as I ahve a very expensive, limited-bandwidth, internet account. So in otherwords, for me, it would be nothing but unwanted bloatware. If you like running programs that have no benefit for you, then kudos to you.

bamccaig
Timorg said:

...48,032K, sitting idle...

On my system (XP, 2GB RAM) it's only consuming ~15MB ATM when idle according to Task Manager.

Kitty Cat said:

I'm sure people thought the same thing about the music purchased from Microsoft or Yahoo..

Steam is done considerably differently from most DRM solutions though. For example, you can download the games you've purchased to as many computers as you want as many times as you want (but understandably must be logged in as the licensed user to play and can only be online once). I don't think I've heard of any other services that permit you to do that. Which means you don't have to worry about losing or damaging discs and I don't think you need to worry about activation keys either. Usually it saves a lot of hassle. As with all solutions, there can be hiccups, but I don't think that's any reason to avoid the platform all together. It's mostly a satisfying solution or it wouldn't be as successful as it is.

Kitty Cat
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Steam is done considerably differently from most DRM solutions though.

It still has that same snag, though. If the servers are ever put down, you cannot verify and will not be able to play the games you bought. Sure, they say that they'll disable activations or whatever if the servers are to go down permanently, but all you have on that is their word. They are under no obligation to do it, and you can't know what the people controlling Steam at the time it goes down will do. So at this point, I have no reason to trust them until I see them follow through on their word and disable activations.

Timorg

Kitty Cat:
I didn't mean to imply that you said it does. I was just throwing out why I like it, and things I think that are good about it. Too much of this is people telling other people what to think, and who is wrong.

Epsi

I've just tested the Steam public demo, and it is AWESOME ;D
So I've pre-ordered the game.

On the Steam subject, I would buy a Steam version of a PC game over the retail version ANY DAY. It has just too much convenience for me, from low dollar-euro conversion, downloadable games, pre-loading, automated backup system...

And as a game developer, I would rather publish with Steam that any other solution.

OICW
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If these features are not important to you, well I guess steam possibly isn't for you. But saying all it does is provide DRM and eat resources, isn't accurate, and doesn't add anything to the argument. Just because you don't use those features, doesn't mean that other users don't want to use them.

You've hit the nail in the head. However I'm forced to use Steam if I want to play one of the games distributed via it (no matter if there's a CD version, you still need it). Just to make myself clear I'm not against it as a distribution platform, in fact I think it's great, it's like many package distribution systems on Linux.

However I'm running package manager only when I need new software. Not everytime I use it. I'm quite fine in registering the game after I download it, but afterwards I'd expect no need for Steam, because I want to play offline game and don't want to mess with community. Besides it's been a long time since I've played online regulary. And when I do today, I do it with friends I know personally. Not with total strangers who have time to play the game every day and have insane skill and often shout n00b.

ngiacomelli

... And if you look to your right, you'll see the original thread topic.

I had a frustrating two-hour long play of the demo last night. Although I've completed the campaign on Expert a number of times, it becomes far more difficult if your team members refuse to strategise or stick together.

We also encountered an interesting 'exploit'. Basically, when your entire team arrives in the safe rooms (which act as level transition markers/checkpoints), the game takes their health at the time of arrival and uses that for each subsequent level restart (after team-wide death). As a result, we'd choose the healthiest member of the team to shoot the rest of us dead. Once the three of us were past the point of resuscitation, the healthy player would lock the safe room and everyone would start at full health for the next segment.

It's also fun to start the demo with a friend and then use console commands to kick the two computer-controlled players you're partnered with, creating an impromptu 'Left 2 Die' game mode :D.

I noticed VAVLe released a second patch to tweak various gameplay aspects. Including ramping the difficulty up on Expert and Advanced! Not long now, folks.

gnolam

After a frustrating struggle against BSODs and shitty drivers (note to self: never ever buy ATI again) I've managed to play the single-player portion of the demo. The game looks promising. Its network code... not so much. I have yet to get a multiplayer game working. :P

And for the record, the Steam forum's search function is among the worst I've ever come across - no keyboard navigation in the humungous listbox, 60 second cooldown plus an anti-captcha (it's so unreadable you need a computer to crack it!)...

bamccaig

Yeah, I'll second the Steam forum rant... The CAPTCHA is ridiculous... :-X

someone972

While we're complaining about some steam aspects I'll complain about the valve store (Not technically steam but Oh Well). My only issue is that the abbreviated the shipping methods and didn't provide any description of what they were. My headcrab hat I ordered came nice and fast though;).

As far as steam I haven't had any issues so far. I was pleasantly supprised to receive some other games when I entered my Half Life CD code into steam.

Kibiz0r
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Its network code... not so much. I have yet to get a multiplayer game working.

The dedicated servers are getting thrashed, so they're kind of iffy, but hosting locally always seems to work fine for us.

Looking at the update notes, they seem to have some growing pains with their new multiplayer setup.

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Fixed a bug where the connection to a server would get stuck in a looping state

Made sv_steamgroup_exclusive not connect to matchmaking. Removed sv_unreserve, private servers should sv_steamgroup_exclusive now

Improved the speed in finding a game lobby

Fixed a bug that could cause you to search for a game lobby indefinitely

Fixed problem with users not being able to connect to dedicated servers

Fix a bug with the group browser not always showing the list of group servers

Tuned matchmaking to provide better search results

Added UI to host a game on a local server

Improvements and performance optimizations to network layer

Fixed several issues with matchmaking and password protected servers

Tuned matchmaking to provide better search results

Fixed bug where servers could stay reserved by matchmaking forever

Performance optimizations and fixes to networking layer

That's like 90% of the fixes.

bamccaig
someone972 said:

My only issue is that the abbreviated the shipping methods and didn't provide any description of what they were.

I see what you mean... Which ones go to Canada!? :'(

Mokkan

I played through single player on the demo a few times yesterday. This game would kick ass for a LAN party. I don't think single player really works for a game like this, though...

gnolam

Hey, I finally got a game running. All it took was ~20 tries, and when I finally managed to connect to a game it had taken the bloody thing almost a full minute to find it. :P
And consolification has struck again - not only can you not select a specific game to join, it seems you can't even see your in-game ping. And latency seems to be a big issue with this game...

The game itself seems awesome, however, so if they fix that I'll probably buy it.

Schyfis

Anyone have any problems with the latest patch?
A friend and I both have the same problem, the game crashes when it is launched. On my Vista machine it says "left4dead.exe has stopped working" while on his XP computer it gives a generic host process for Windows services error or something.

Trent Gamblin

Just when I thought I was too old/didn't like games anymore, I played this. It's really enjoyable... don't know if I'll buy it though, with all the Christmas gifts I have to buy. Maybe later on, although then the online play will have died down... but I like the single player anyway.

gnolam

And now they've disabled the demo, so I won't actually be able to convince any RL friends to try it out. Great thinking there, Valve!
Oh well, on the bright side I guess they saved me some money with that move...

MiquelFire

Wait, they disabled the demo? So those who weren't paying attention (or too lazy) that wanted to try this game first won't be able to? Yea... smooth...

Jonatan Hedborg

What, they disabled the demo? That's brilliantly stupid :D

bamccaig

I'm reading that they disabled the demo to reserve the servers for purchaser use. Which makes sense, but doesn't that mean that single player should still work? :-X

Kibiz0r

Maybe they're going to patch it. It's still really stupid, though. You can't release a game and not have a demo for it, especially when you've had a demo for two weeks beforehand.

My friend said you can still play the demo by just running the executable, though. That's assuming you already had it downloaded, of course...

* Confirmed, but multiplayer doesn't work.

gnolam
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I'm reading that they disabled the demo to reserve the servers for purchaser use. Which makes sense, but doesn't that mean the single player should still work? :-X

So... covering up incompetence (the completely botched matchmaking system) with incompetence? Nicely done!

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Maybe they're going to patch it. It's still really stupid, though. You can't release a game and not have a demo for it, especially when you've had a demo for two weeks beforehand.

One week. Only the public demo, i.e. the version for people who haven't already bought the game, counts.

Kibiz0r
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One week. Only the public demo, i.e. the version for people who haven't already bought the game, counts.

Why? The only thing I'm pointing out is that they had a demo already packaged up and ready two weeks ago; they didn't hit the release date and go "Sorry folks, we forgot to make a demo, could you wait a minute?"

Mokkan

My friend just bought L4D tonight. He needs someone to play with, so I'm about to head over there. 8-)

le_y_mistar

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Jonatan Hedborg

Have fun playing it alone... Talk about waste of time.

LennyLen
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Have fun playing it alone... Talk about waste of time.

It's reative really. I'd only ever play a game like that single-player as past experience has taught me that getting killed non-stop again and again is totally depressing and not fun in the slightest. At least against the computer I stand some chance of surviving for more than 30 seconds..

Jonatan Hedborg

A game like that? Have you actually played L4D? ;) The primary play-mode is co-op against computer controlled enemies. There is also a versus mode where you play 4 survivors vs. 4 human controlled special zombies and the horde (the ai-controlled zombies)...

Single-player is just co-op with bots on your side instead of humans.

LennyLen
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A game like that? Have you actually played L4D?

No I haven't. I was told it was a first-person shooter, so instantly lost interest.

I'd possibly play it co-op against an AI if I could get the game for free. It's still not something I'd pay to play. I don't think it would play nicely (if at all) with my on-board graphics chip anyway.

FPS games are a bit of a bugbear for me. I quite enjoy playing them, but I really, really, suck at them. My coordination is terrible, and my reaction time is even worse. I'm ok from a tactical point of view, but the moment it starts requiring lots of jumping, or well-timed movement, I'm screwed. I still haven't finished one yet.

le_y_mistar

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