Scrapping the traditional hack/slash mmo I was thinking of different types of games styles that could be brought over to the mmo genre. I'm wondering how a settlement/explore style game would do. Something where exploring the lands and making settlements anywhere you want (having the real-life effects apply to encourage grouping, for example by rivers and lakes) would play out. A game where there are no maps of the land. Where to get to places you either have to had been there or users tell you about it? To have great things to explore and discover.

My idea starts with x number of starting zones around the world. Heavily forest populated lands with some open space and deserts as well. I just keep imagining in my head tribes forming and eventually as they explore they find other real life tribes "thousands" of miles away. Where you could be a year into the game and still be exploring new areas and finding new people. Certain natural resources would need to be found by exploring to further your tribes technologies. Stuff like that. Could that work?

Sounds kinda fun. It's something sort of like what I used to do in Empire Earth when I would get bored of the real game, just make a civilization and take them through each epoch.

I think the major pitfall of this game is that it would have to be truly massive with everyone playing for a long long time all the time for it to really work out and be fun.

Wow. Thats is a cool idae.

I would really like to play a game like this.
But I think that there are 2 problems
1) People don't even start playing the game, because they don't know what the maps are like
2) People are making there own maps posting then on the internet... which maybe would ruin the fun part.

Hmm... now I want to play this game

I've had a very similar reoccurring idea. To add to yours, a core concept of the game is there needs to be a reason why players are exploring and settling the world. If it is just to explore and settle, if that's it, I don't think it's going to be very fun. Your game will be based on people having the imagination to entertain themselves within the game, and that's a dangerous concept.

So I suggest some lore existing in your game. Perhaps you could have some mythical monsters roaming different parts of the world. Training and defeating these creatures becomes part of why people gather and why "gated communities" need to exist. You could even have the monsters attack villages being built.

One little scenario I played in my head is as follows. I've imagined a world that is mostly explored, several small communities have formed, but there is one cave that people tend to die in. So some adventurous fellows join together to brave deep into its depths. As a team, they manage to traverse the cave, exiting out into a narrow valley. In this valley, they see forest below, plains that follow (with some rather large Ogres hunting for some snacks) and a large, black castle at the end of the valley. Above the castle is a large, ominous cat-like eye, scanning the valley. Imagine the excitement of the explorers' discovery!

A world with lore gives people reason to explore. Anyway, yes, I would love to play this kind of game.

To solve that, you'd have several communities that aren't player made, but were added by the developer(s), and those communities will be maintained by NPCs or GMs or someone like that. And as the player created communities increase in size and number, you can remove the developer created ones.

Why remove them? As long as there built with the same features that any group of players could reproduce the "communities", then it would be as if players have been playing for a long time and simply add to the dynamic. I know if I were playing FFXI and I had the power to build a village, I surely wouldn't want to rid the fantasy world of the great Republic of Bastok.

I would love a game where you get to explore blind. It would be cool to have built a fort in an unexplored area and have to defend it from a siege. Only problem is loners might have some trouble, because they can't really go anywhere new and exciting. While that makes sense, and is like many other games, it still kinda blows for loners.

If you are in a fort, it should not be practical to teleport back to a safer zone when you log off. If the fort falls, so do you.

Imagine if two large guilds try to gain the same fertile valley. If guilds could get up to 1,000 people, it could be a constantly raging battle for hours. That would be so cool...

And if it had complete environment interactivity! And fire. Fire is KEY. Corruption would be cool too, using necromancy should make you hurt. Like in...those books with the Sovereign stone? And that evil guy who was the Guardian of the Void? And Patch, the whipping boy? Ringing any bells? No? Well, Void magic caused blisters, boils, etc etc.

Also like in that book you could combine powers to cast gigantic spells with like 20 mages. Of course, some would die in the attempt.

About Lore- I always liked lore, but never really found one with a really driving storyline.

A minor hitch would be a game like this would need massive GM support. Maybe like 10-15 good GMs and 4-6 evil ones.

I would totally play that game.

I had another idea of how to make MMORPG's more fun. I thinking there shouldn't be a traditional quest scheme, rather everything should be user based. Instead of going on a quest to destroy computer Evil Overlord instead imagine if the Evil Overlord was another player. Think how much better that would make exploring his dungeon. My idea is that certain players will get promoted to special positions where they will be able to create world influencing events, such as wage war.

Would player communities be able to make war with each other?

i though up this a while ago.

Well, I'm sure Ricky Piller is very sorry for stealing your idea, piccolo.

it ok thats how ideas are if you dont move fast some one else with think up the same thing.

It's already been done. Cantr started out with nothing, players spawn with nothing and have to explore the world to get what they want. Everyone makes up their own goals just like in real life.

It works very well, but only if you're a roleplayer. But if you think about it, why would you want anything but roleplayers in such a game? Non roleplayers only ruin the game experience. In Cantr they are banned when they're misbehaving.

I've played something like this, it's not quite what you described but something very close to it. Ultima Online in a Brazilian (where I'm from) Role-Playing-Shard. The game was totally player based.(www.aow.com.br) By the way, I'm still waiting for this shard to come online again, for it's the best shard I've ever played in.

But changing the subject, I would really like playing a game like this, and if it was totally player based it would be best. I imagine tribes of players with leaders democratly elected, meeting other tribes, making alliances, battling and other stuff.

I've wanted to play a game like that for years. It would be so awesome, it would make Chuck Norris jealous.

The idea itself sounds great, but you'd probably need a huge world to make it possible. We're talking bigger dimensions than World of Warcraft, assuming it's going to be a 3D world.
What kind of engine would support the amount of data?

Everyone has in some form or another -- but everyone has a slightly different take on what would make it work or what would break it.

Several games like this probably already exist (and some of the earlier testimonies are proof)

An engine that a programmer wrote that supports that amount of data... duh.

Realistically, the amount of processing power you need for something is always avilable, it's just the cost that matters anymore -- if you really need to you can buy/setup a server farm full of database and game servers for your MMO, and you can buy as much bandwidth as you need too of course (hell, you can host it in Korea!). It all comes down to money.

Wow, seems this idea is a good one. I think I'll have to explorer it more.

I'm imagining new resources to make people settle in other places. Both new types and more. Certain resources would become depleted, and new one's would be out there. The only issues I have is how to introduce things to make which would need these resources which would make people want to explore.

On the exploring side, there has to be a danger besides beasts and such. So I was thinking about having a food/water dependency. You wouldn't have to actually eat and drink, but you would need supplies in your backpack that would automatically be reduced at a rate that is dependent on what you are doing. So if you are climbing a mountain food and water would be reduced at a greater rate than if you were just walking on flat ground. You could of course hunt and store fresh water, if you found some. If you run out of food/water you die after x mins. You can res (not sure on how this would work yet) and have like 10-15 mins to find food or water or have someone come help you and give you food/water.

Community made maps is what I would want. It adds to the game I think. Makes it feel like the players own the world as everything isn't handed to them. I think I would add a feature to somehow make maps in game and possibly trade/sell them to others. Something like a simple paint editor, where players could draw their version of the world.

The key to this, I think, is to spread out the population in the world but still keep some together to give a tribe feel. They would need to be spread out enough yet still be able to find some tribes early on to give them that hope of finding more.

The cool thing would be that different areas would have different food/dress/etc. to give those people who find them a sense that they found a totally different world that they didn't know existed. Then be able to learn their ways.

I'd want professions (like tailoring, blacksmithing, etc) to be involved. Not so much a level up effect but more of finding plans and patterns to advance technology, that once a person has it can share those plans/patterns with other players via a scriber to copy those on a scroll, which would require natural resources to make. I just don't know how I would introduce these plans/patterns to the game. Maybe when you kill/gather things these have a chance to drop. Certain plans/patterns/etc would be specific to areas in the land.

I love the ideas, keep them coming. It's starting to form.

If I was playing game like this, I would want to BE something, I mean. Be very good at a profession or maybe have a house, discover something.

And the most interesting about this is that, there is too much to explore, you could add like tons of things to game, limited only by people's immaginaiton.

I like the mapping thing. It would really make me feel like a part of the game to be able to make maps of areas no one has ever been to before. I bet that maps to new tribes would be very valuable, too.

The food thing sounds great, too. Always, in games, your running around for days and weeks, never having to worry about survival. Another thing, instead of eating to regain health, you could have supplies like bandages and splints that would help to heal your wounds over time, and injuries could effect more than just your health. A huge gash across your arm could effect your strength, and a crippling blow to your legs would effect your speed.

What about roads ?
After a few times people walk in the same places, patches of hard ground would be created, forming a track, little by little.
Unused roads would slowly become wild again.
It would be nice for explorers, showing there is/was some activity nearby.

Yes. Awesome. For that matter, what about rivers? I mean, fording them is okay, but once you have a road it should be possible to build a bridge. Also, paving roads would be good. If a road became paved it would take much longer to go back to the wild. But if you put in roads, where do you stop? Canals, aquaducts, an equivalent of the Great Wall of China? Eventually you have to find a point where you say "Okay, that's enough features." Otherwise you'll have thousands of features to code and you'll never finish.

But I still think roads would be a good idea. Just maybe not paving them.

The only problem I can see with allowing users to make their own maps in game is that the majority of user made maps will be junk. I think this could seriously detract from the enjoyment of the game. Especially if there is no way to screen out the rubbish maps and players are enforced to endure "teh pwn z0ne!!!111!" (thats what my zone would be called, and it'd be filled to the brim with rampaging uber mobs).

He meant maps for navigation. Paintings of the existing world... things the humans used before navigation systems where invented.
Not creating new areas in the world you can walk to.

Now i'm sad

I'm not. Because

I really like the navigation map idea though.
I'm not sure about the streets that appear automatically just by walking over the same place... this should be a thing the user should actively be able to do.
But not sure what the reward for building a road would be.. Maybe you would loose less food and water when walking on a road then walking on grass/sand/etc

The way I see it, the mere presence of other human players would help:
1) even if nobody's actively securing the area, roaming monsters are as likely to attack other players instead of you
2a) with roads, it's easy (faster) to cross a populated area - and get out of it. Then you're out in the wild and discovery is slower.
2b) If a whole group is travelling together, they will build a road while they walk : people lagging behind will catch up, and the whole group's average speed will be higher than normal.

I'm thinking very much of Schiffbruch (Shipwreck) with these survival/exploration ideas. However in Schiffbruch the player can modify the environment a lot, and quite permanently (plant seeds, build tents, etc), it won't be as good in a MMO where it would be too easy/useful to parasit or sabotage other people's terrain and buildings.

Tim Buckley of Ctrl-Alt-Del had some neat ideas about this once. One thought he had which really appealed to me was how you wanted your character to "level". In the traditional sense like WoW would be one obvious path, the only difference being you would beef up as you leveled. A 70 Warrior and a 10 Warrior should be distinguishable from each other in their skivvies; the former should be much better built. You should be able to know a 70 just by looking at him, not his number.

A second path could be a crafter. You can already do this to a certain extent in WoW, but there should be some option to be a merchant and producer, with a market in the game to be able to sell and make profit through. Higher levels would mean more skill in craftmanship and product, and again, you should be able to tell a high level by looking at them, be it their general attire or a high quality belt/cape/weapon made for show.

Third path could be political. Gain reputation and be able to influence world matters. This might seem too powerful unless there were some way for the wealthy merchant to fund an opposition, and of course the followers of the first path could just raise arms and try to kill you. I would love for the world to be conquerable; have major cities designed to withstand an attack honestly but not be invincible (one may get taken over a month for example; it would be a big deal), to have rulers that didn't respawn. This would have to be overseen by GM's who could keep the flow of power from being too unbalanced - not much fun when your race and faction gets overthrown and you never leave your cave or forest - but it would be mad fun to say you were part of the army that threw down the mighty city of such-and-such in the legendary battle of this-and-that.

Have people build inside walled towns. If someone starts breaking people's stuff then the leadership of the town can throw him out, meaning the gates won't open for him. of course, the walls could be torn down by an attacking army, but they would keep a single person out.

This could cause problems...imagine ten guilds banding together and conquering the world. Pay the tax or die.

Well, then ten other guilds ban together and fight back. Also:

I would like to keep GM's out of it. I say let things get unbalanced and when the discontent with the rulers is great enough the players should be able to revolt and overthrow the rulers by outsmarting them. It should be possible to assassinate people, such acts would not require massive armies, only a small dedicated group.

As for roads, I think people should build them manually by choosing where to place the road and using sand and stone as resources. A proper road doesn't just form, all you get from people walking the same path is a muddy mess or stomped dirt.

OH MY GOD!!! Want this game NOW! Why are you talking about it and not making it?!!! ME WANTS IT!

</excitement>

This is GREAT. I mean, its like putting more tension on a string. More, more more and it breaks. Then all hell breaks loose. And then the process begins all over again. As I said, this game, NOW!

I want to play it a year ago, so that by now I'd be an experienced player who knew what he was doing and could be really enjoying the game.

If you're a sedentary civilization, with horses and carts, yes.
But you won't get any exploration gameplay in such universe. I was thinking more of a pre-wheel, nomadic or semi-nomadic way of life with gathering and hunting, so you set camp for a moment, then pack up and move on. (especially if you're bothered by PKs or parasites)
My suggestion only referred to the trails / tracks in a forest, jungle or desert, making a visible path crossing bushes, and where branches and treacherous rocks have been pushed aside.

Audric:
Yeah that sounds better than all the road crap i came up with. But still, you'd have a few sedentary communities if you had things like mines, good farmland, etc. People would congregate around these natural resources and it would add to the gameplay to let them build up towns.

Well, Cantr II does have most of that, though it's almost completely text-based, and extremely slow.

Someone please make this game. Cantr II sounded good until I saw "text-based" and "slow".

Hehe, let's do it. Shawn Hargreaves shall lead us to glory.

Making such a game, wouldn't too easy though. As all following is a must..

Advertising.
Ideas, and balancing..
Programming/Modeling.
Bandwidth.
Hardware.

I suppose this are the main parts. #2, is the most difficult to accomplish, in my opinion. There are 3d MMORPGs, already made. Quite a lot. 70% of the people playing them, consider themselves addicted to their games(Sorry no source, but you can google it). Making the game so free, as the topic starter intended would make it terribly addictive. I see in the game something like this:

:: The Game ::

You are, in some virgin world. Without roads nor bridges. Just nature, let's say something had happened to the monkey's DNA and it's children appeared to be humans. Or it is all a giant alien experiment(second better I believe).

The game, can't be a full emulation of material world(we'll look at the computers being made at 2107 though) so, players will have basic skills(and will learn new of course) probably, players will choose their skills for the beginning. With their skills, they will hunt, fight(the only thing the developers don't need to think about- the players will fight) craft(bows, clothes, bags, tents..). Having a different set of skills will force players to stick together. Also it's better to protect themselves from other players, or vice versa- raid.

I think, the world should get developed, from fighting with sticks .. sticks with stones on the edge .. bows .. swords. Not more, so that one with just a stick, would remain human.

Also, if we want realism in our game, a user must not be able just to log off, and disappear. As he logs off, his character would continue to function(do the basics, following a program, sleeping, eating), but with a risk to be found & robbed or even killed. Thus another question appears: How should the developer deal with the death. In a realistic game, it can't be something simple. The penalty must be hard. A player would reappear again, kind of "reborn". With flags(in programming meaning), on certain skills, thus re-achieving them after some time. The player, should still be recognizable by the others(his name remains). All currency would obviously be lost. But, if you are in some kind of a camp, for a long duration, and the members know you, they can save the goods for you.. if they are willing to(probably your friends from real life?).

:: The End ::

I have a lot to add/expand. These ideas wasn't generated totally on the fly, so I believe some parts of this could really work, but it's not a "problem" that can be solved in a matter of minutes(nor even half an hour(edit: 45min)).

In addition to all the listed "things" to be solved(advertising, programming..) a terrible fact remains. This genre of games is addictive, if a game of the kind described by me will be made playable, it can replace the real life.

I really hope somebody has read this, and would like to see feedback.

Sorry, that name's already taken.

{quote]As he logs off, his character would continue to function(do the basics, following a program, sleeping, eating), but with a risk to be found & robbed or even killed.
</quote>

There is the possibility of having too much realism. It can take away from the fun.

You could also have a strongbox in your house where you could keep a few bare essentials.

The ideas are limitless, and probably even harder then generating them, would be choosing suitable ones. The games with limited realism, and actually focusing on pure combat(I've nothing against that in ::TG:: also) are Linage, Ultima Online(not sure), WoW and a lot of others.. Without the realism, almost. Just the most important parts, to make the combat interesting. (i.e. dying not good)

:: The Game :: - abstract..

I'll late to school, and all day long think about MMO ideas, rather then computer graphics & C++ -_-. (Unfortunately today three lessons of these(and I love them)).

Edit:

Oh, what a .... up.

Edit1:
Yes, I think it's a good idea, new at least(well, I've never seen in any previous game). The player, is playing always. While offline, being controlled by the AI, based on the player's play style and following a certain program. When you log in, you might be surprised. Of course.. A dozen of disadvantages also exist.

Orly? I haven't seen any... I've only seen MMOGFG (GrindFest)

This would be the first true 3D MMORPG AFAIK.

Oh, someone judged Cantr for being textbased and slow. The text is arranged in menus so it's not textbased as in a chatlike interface only. As for slow, when you play 15 characters simultaneously and stuff happens on all of them, you'll be begging for more minutes.

You don't have to be logged in for your Cantr chars to keep working, you only have to check in on the a few times now and then, it's almost like a forum.

Sounds like Progress Quest then.

I really need to log onto that more often ....

Well, the main differences is that Cantr is interactive. You can communicate with other chars and choose what to do and where to go. You even make up your own quests/religions/state of mind for your characters.

That was my (pleasant) impression, too.
The "slowness" (or "being slow-paced" as the Cantr team puts it), needs some getting used to, but it's definitely an advantage, since you can interact with other players regardless of when they log in - so there are very few inactive characters. And since a character can often be left on his own for quite a while, the game fits nicely in crowded schedules...

OK, so I was thinking of how things can be discovered and created and having that knowledge sharable.

1) Language is already developed
2) There is an ability everyone has called Experiment
3) When you experiment, you supply different materials to experiment with
4) Once you get the right combination of materials, things are invented and you now know how to make them
5) If you wish to share your knowledge you can write it on a scroll and others can consume the scroll and now they know it, without having to experiment.
6) Experimenting consumes the resources you are using

An example of this may be a spear.

Experimenting with a type of rock, stick, and rope would produce a spear. Once you experiment with that combo, you now know the mats to create a spear.

This could be done with raw materials to create other materials that are need for the final product. ie. smelt metals to create a sword, which would need a anvil and hammer which again need certain mats to create.

The cool thing about this I think is that different things will be created in different tribes that are located in different areas and have access to different materials. So finding another tribe would most likely mean learning what kind of stuff they can make if they choose to share that knowledge.

Nice.

After quite a short period of time, everyone will know everything. Maybe some other tribe member, can't learn how to do this, so that they would trade?

That's the only problem I see with this idea. Eventually the world would be full and everything would be discovered.

Ricky, you're descriptions are so close to the images I've had for something like this (as someone said earlier, "we've all had this thought, differing slightly in how it would be presented").

There's nothing wrong with jotting ideas down and start arranging some thoughts into a bit more organized lists. Obviously, this would be a long project, so having it all documented would definitely come in handy as the project comes to life. For long projects and ideas I've had, I started up a wiki for myself so I can add to it whenever I have an idea, splitting it into sections of random brain babble to formatted, in-depth descriptions.

Once you get to a certain point, you take what you got and scale it down to only 10%, give it a name like "OverWorld". Then, make "OverWorld II" and then III and so on and so forth. Perhaps by the time you get to "Overworld X", it'll have everything you originally wrote in the wiki with a decent following of fans.

I'm not sure why, but on some subconscious level this statement makes me angry. Maybe it's having to play through ten games to get the whole storyline. Maybe it's because I'm against cheap marketing plots.

Trying to be realistic. Plus, storyline can change and be unique between each sequel.

Episodic gaming is coming into its own. See Sam & Max.

It's nice for consumers because they can buy a taste of the game at a lower price, and it will (hopefully) not result in one of those plateau learning curves where halfway through the game there's no challenge anymore.

It's nice for developers because they get feedback from users between episodes, they stand to make more money in the long run if people become fans of the series, and there's room to introduce and take away story components, game mechanics, etc without worrying about how it all ties together in the end.

The bad is that you have to create much more content if you want to create entirely new stages for each episode. Luckily, the Sam & Max devs had a nice solution to this: They reuse some things as sort of running gags, which means additional content for episodes without having to recreate it, and a little something extra for fans to watch for.

Well if Onewing was talking about episodic games that's fine. I thought he meant make the game, then re-release it with "improvements" and a storyline just different enough to call it a "sequel".

That, I hate.

Then I'm fine. Although episodic sounds wrong. I'm thinking more like Final Fantasy or maybe Metal Gear Solid, which each new addition feels more like a stand-alone game. Yes, MGS vs FF is quite a bit different, but the main point is that you can play any given game in the series without having to play the others and be fine (although playing other games in the series adds to the overall value). This ultimately pays off in the long run, developing the fan base to keep the series going strong. However it takes a lot of patience and may never get the fan base you would want, so it's risky. I, personally, am all for it. If only I could get finish the first game in a series...

I've always been interested in episodic games, but I've never thought of an IP I thought would fit an episodic style.

Whoa. Yaknow how everyone always wanted to make a community game, but it seems impossible because it would be hard to get everyone to agree? We could do it episodically. Just have a few basic concepts that extend to all the games, and the allegroids can just go nuts with it. That keeps it more cohesive than the mini-game projects that have been done, and still lets the individuals make their own decisions!

I think an MMO would profit from growing over time.
It's possible to make a basic interface and a world that can be extended, then you're ready to launch your first server.

Only the first few testers will be playing at first. As you add more resources, land and possibilities to the world it will grow more interesting and more people play the game.

Cantr continuously adds more things for people to do and change the mechanics of the game. For instance there are old vehicles around that keep features that can no longer be accomplished because the gamemakers felt things needed to change. It's really fun to discover such things and adds to the fun for the players. Also, these vehicles have advantages that make them very valuable.

That's good too. As long as you aren't forcing players to buy one game to understand another game when the second one doesn't deserve the name sequel. Don't get me wrong, sequels are ok, even if you do have to play the earlier games first, as long as the sequel actually adds something more than a new enemy and a few new locations. The Halo games are a good example. The story is way too long to fit into one game, but each game adds new story as well as other things that make them true sequels, unlike insert crappy "sequel" of choice here

This sounds awesome! Let's start another thread on this. I'll let you do it if you want, because I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that it was my idea.

To me, the only way a community project would work is to have leaders and followers and each know his position. If it's a free for all, nothing will ever get done.

[edit]
Aaaand, I think this is the last post I can put in this thread...

If you make this game, I'd pay for it.

If I were making this game, you'd have to pay out your ass for it.

Not true at all. With modern engine design maps can be huge. If you have ever played any of the Delta Force games you will know what I'm talking about. You can run in 1 direction for well over an hour. And that's with no limits holding you back like, food/water requirements. Things to do along the way etc. I'm willing to bet you could make it take 2+ years to be able to navigate the entire land. The best part is the game really revolves around that, so most of the dev time is on the land instead of 80 different other features. If you wanted to you could add more areas also, but in my mind this would be a game that would just be. No expansions, just this world, always there. Then create a totally different world for a new game. Wouldn't be an expansion or a sequel really, just a new world with the same idea.

That's a much better solution than anything I thought of. All of my ideas were so obviously crappy that I didn't even post them.

Hmm, I can't find where I said a bunch of stuff. Am I missing something?

I just didn't think quoting that entire paragraph would look good in my post. Be happy, I usually don't put a name to the quote. Imagine if I had just said:

I seem to remember that delta force simply wraps the map. So you could run for a very long time. But you'll be bored long before that.

Armed assault or operation flashpoint, on the other hand - they have huge maps.

That means you would spend 10 years making the map.

Remember the M's in MMO. 12 players who cooperate will visit the place 12 times faster : after 2 months, everything is mapped.

Or spend some (much less) time on programming a good random map generator, and let it work for a long while.

This is determined by how the game mechanics are made.

And it for sure wouldn't take 10 years to make the map. That's not how that works. I can make a huge boring land in mins that would take days to get across. It's not like every little spot is unique and requires personal touch by the map makers.

Have any of you read Gerald Durrell's "The Mockery Bird"? There's this story about how they get to the valley where the mockery bird is. The valley is surrounded by a high mountain that is barely passable, so in order to get to the valley you need to have a huge expedition (~100 people) and build camps every 1000 meters let's say. Every day, 10 people go from a camp to the camp below (or the to the city if they're from the first camp) to get supplies, and evntually you have a group of 5 people that make it all the way to the valley, with 100 more just making sure there are supplies in every camp. If you make most of the world like that, it would take years untill everything would be mapped, as you need to find 100 people that are interested on going on an expedition.

Just my 2 Allegro Rupees.

I like this idea. Maybe not years to do, but if you put a couple of these types of obstacles in the game, and maybe make it so materials have to be gathered and people have to build to make some sort of bridge to continue across a river, valley, whatever.

If you make most of the world like that no one will want to play. Can you imagine how boring it would be to have to mount a 1000 person expedition to get to the next village over? On second thought, this would work. It did for console RPGs.

Well, naturally, poeple won't settle where they can go, so all of the villages will be in the 20% that is easily passable. Allow me to illustrate:

x - low passability
  - high passability
. - village

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx    .    x
x   .   . xx   .      x
x  .   .  xx .    .   x
x    .    xxx         x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx   .  x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx     x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  .   x

And in the hard to reach areas are very valuable resources that you need to make that Shiny +5 armor.

xx.x.x..x..x..x..xxxxxx
x.....x.x...x..xxxxxxxx
xxxx...xxxxxx    .    x
x   .   . xx   .      x
x  .   .  xx .    .   x
x    .    xxx         x
xxx...xxx..xxxxx   .  x
x.x..x.xxx.xx..xx     x
x....x.x.xx..xxx  .   x

fixed

Or even without the resources, in the harder passable area, hiding would be more coefficient.

I think that if this game was created, it should have some interesting features like: A ridiculusly large map, and when a player discovers something interesting, he/she can name it. Also, in-game, player-made maps would be cool, too.
I would also think that players would appreciate ruined cities, a good storyline (Similar to dragon quest, but with multiplayer), and, of course, the ridiculusly large map

[qoute]when a player discovers something interesting, he/she can name it.
</quote>

The problem with that is then every other rock would be named "Dick Mountain".

I think this is a great idea. I'm also more than willing to help out.

Just a few thoughts, though:
-Naming would be nice, however instead of this, why not let users put labels on their maps?
-Mapping, I guess, would be done by a toggle on/off skill that has some disadvantages. I.e, reduces player speed or something.
-Finite ammount of resources would be pretty much a requirement, to stop new players from becomming useless when confronted with older, richer ones.
-Why not get a teach skill, that allows players to pass over skills/'blueprints' to other players?
-Have a kind of "extreme" resource avaliability... I.e, in the North, solid ice/rock, East, jungle, south, desert, West, rolling hills. This way, then they start, players can pick (roughly) which side they "land" on, and thus pick up skills/blueprints for this area, as to facilitate their nomadic nature?

Well, anyway, let's start to get some ideas together, yah? I've still got that webspace to turn over, if you need it

Yeah, let's get going with this. I already have a simple 2-step program covering the next 20 years.

• Collect ideas (5y)

• Make the game (15y)

If you want to do finite resources, remember it has been tried before and did not go well. Someone will hog all the wool in the world forcing you to inject more of that resource.

It think you should have decay of everything, no matter how you use it or store it things should gradually become worse until it disintegrates. You should also be able to repair stuff, but at least one person can not repair infinite amounts of objects.

Yes, a decay would work, and instead of re-sawning trees, the players have to plant trees they cut down.

So we need to answer a few more questions:

1.) What engine will the game use? Or will we make our own?

2.) What language? (Java, or C++)

3.) What will be a basic story for thew game?

4.) How much player-control will this game have?

1) Is there an existing engine that covers all needs? I guess not, so probably we would make our own.

2) I always prefer compilable language for games.

3) That's the easiest part.

4) I think the idea of the game is to be totally controlled by players, and only monitored by game masters.

I guess the game will be outdoors only, wide landscapes with objects sprinkled everywhere.
So good support for landscapes with level of detail if you want to see far.
It needs a quadtree.
Animated and static objects, what model format and how to export/convert?
Use OpenLayer? Easy 2D, (gui?) and input while building the 3D from scratch.

Ok, so we'll have to write our own engine...

So C++ should be a good language then?

Ok, the players control most everything, and GMs moniter.

As for landscape, should we focus on detail, or sheer size?

also

We'll need some more stuff:

Graphic artists

Engine programmers

and

A server to run the game from.

Also, should the game be moddable? Or should we just add more stuff to the main map as the players discover more?

Wow, i like this game already!

EDIT:

This should get organized quickly. I love the idea, and would love to contribute in any way i can.

I am a fairly experienced C++ programmer, and a good 3-D modeler. I can also make fonts .

Oh, and i know how to setup websites quickly!

Jolt.co.uk has been known to sponsper Indie MMO's in the past, could be a long road though unless we find an alternative - I'm willing to chip in a little $ if it means getting a server.

For now, why don't we just do local servers? Just keep both executables in a repository (CVS/Superversion/Subversion), so that when downloaded, we can run it through the loopback, so that you just run the server on your own PC?

Engine, yeah, better do our own. Either that or use a developed, widely-used Engine, such as Ogre, and fork it for networking/whatever else we want.

Just a few more thoughts of mine:
Why not dynamically resize the map when we get x ammount of new players? Just find an empty region and splice in a new mountain/field/glacier/valley suitable to the region.
-Yeah, o.k, Finite resources was a little silly. Decay sounds much bettter

Anyway,alot of talent can be found on gamedev.net, once we have a project name, and a more presentable way of showing information, I can make a post there to get us started.

But, is this going to be freeware (difficult to do), subscription, or a combination of both?

I dunno. A subscription would be good to pay for a server, but then again, it DOES scare off SOME people. We could just be like runescape, and have both basic and members. Or be more original. But i definatley think we should keep it free as long as possible.

Also, are we going to start planning the actual game, and organizing a team?

Yeah, sure give me a second and I'll set up a Wiki for you on project.refectorium.id.au/wiki/ I'll start organising who/what we need, and let you do some editing of your own.

Cool.

I just wrote this list of what we would need:

Game engine programmers (Specialized, preffered)

The programmers who will do other things with the engine (Vacuus, Seismosaur)

3D modelers

2D artists

Music

Foley effects

Game Masters

Server maintainers

Webmasters (Seismosaur, Vacuus)

Level designers

Story writers (Neil Black)

People who coordinate the project

That's all i can think of for now.

I'll manage the web design, and coordinate the project, as well as program, but my experiences with Engine design is pretty limited I think, once we get the thing going, many of the devs will gladly do some GM work, so that would help.

But, o.k, I'll add the articles now.

I'm good with web design, some programming, and 3D modeling, as i said before. But how does this wiki software work? (I've only used Uncyclopedia, and Wikia). It looks weird, but clean. Ha.:D

I volunteer for story writing! It's my only game-related skill that I'm halfway decent at.

Ok. Marks you onto the list

Will this have skills, fighting wise?

If so you will need skill and combat developers and balancers.

Mabey, but that would go along with story and programming.

It's TikiWiki. I have only used older versions, so it's taking a little while to get set up. Anyway, just register, quick-edit a page, and then do what ever to create a new article. Right now I'm doing "Positions" page, and will add names as nessescary. Ricky, I haven't heard anythin from you on this yet, I'm guessing you'll want to head this thing up?

I think, (actually quite sure) that you are going to need someone, to help you balance the game, and giving up some ideas, even that everybody can do that, I'm quite an experienced MMO player, and I love computer games (And am ready to volunteer) Also I know C++, but obviously, there are others here, with a lot more experience at C++, so my skill isn't going to be needed here, probably.

Also, I would love to know, are we planning to do some MMO, like a lot of others out there, or something completely unique, that can't be compared to Modern popular MMOs. Out of ideas given here, it's not obvious.

And, by the way

I wonder, what kind of people, and skills are required for this work? In any case, I'm ready to volunteer.

Well, yeah, Wiki fixed up a little - looking o.k for a hack job. We've got forums, Articles, image galleries, file uploads, webmail, etc... http://project.refectorium.id.au/wiki/

But, yeah, thanks typo568. I'll add a beta testers thingo and put you there, feel free to add yourself to Programming if you'd like.

I might be able to do some really simple programming things, but I wouldn't count on it. I'll playtest the game, though. And I've already mentioned that I'll help with story. Anything else that a programming noob like me could help with?

@ type5568 True, as i said before. But i just had this thought: Wouldn't players be more interested in a slightly skewed game? Like, there are two main kingdoms, and one is of considerable size, and the other is not. It would be enticing for players to join either side then. Because joining the smaller kingdom could give you the glory of taking down the larger, and joining the larger would give you a large back-up. But the resources and item strengths should stay equal.

Ok, what the heck?! I can't log on!!

Do you want to force people to join a kindom? Some are going to freelance.. Too bad, not a new idea, anywyas. (Stalker)

Yea, u will HAVE to have a nationality.

I think players should be able to create their own, too. But have it cost a lot of money and resources.

BTW, i got a few of these ideas from Carpe Diem the game.

Seismosaur, would be great if you read your posts, before actually posting them. Also, having one kingdom out of two destroyed, could mean pretty much, as an end of the game, which isn't something can happen to an MMO.. Until, after the victory(of one of the kingdoms) all begins over, with the players having their stuff, in the "new world".

Hmm... Mabey just have an autobalance so that a minimum of two Kingdoms remain?

Kingdoms should be organized by the players. One player (or a group, if you allow for it), will be the leader of each kingdom and they will have followers. Anyone can make a kingdom, but if you can't get any support then your kingdom will get smacked down pretty fast. Also, there has to be a way to destroy a kingdom, like if the king dies or surrenders then his kingdom is destroyed.

That sounds pretty good. Kinda like clans. In fact, i think a freelancing/player kingdoms is a good idea! But what about history? A good backstory always makes for interesting gameplay, and since there are no default kingdoms, what would the backstory be? And what level of technological advancment would the game encompass?

So it would be like mega-guilds? You could have different options for leadership that would affect how decisions are reached- dictatorship, oligarchy, democracy, etc etc. A strong noble (part-ruler) with a strong following could conquer a democracy.

Is there magic? I hope so.

I vote no safe, minor combustion; it is possible to mine using kegs of explosives, but a gun will not work.

So start coding. Allegro.cc will only waste your time.

We're getting there, i hope .

We don't even really have a plan, ha.

Make up the plan as you go.

Players create the history of the game. At first there will be very little back-story, but in a couple of years the history books will be filled with events and actions that were carried out by players. And the players who did those things can say "Yep, I'm the HoppyBunny22". Discover a new continent? Blam, you get a page in the history book. Play a major role in conquering a kingdom? You get a paragraph. Getting into the history book would become a status symbol in the game. If you wanted to be really evil you could make it so only registered (read: paying) members were eligible. But personally I'd be against that.

Yeah, sounds great .

Anyway, team members are Admins on the site as of now, and I'm going to start a discussion on Engine design/Usage. I'll post on Gamedev as well...

Ah yes, important feature for a game where players make their own kingdoms.
You should be able to be a member of several collections of players. In ordinary MMOs you have the party, the guild and the side you've joined.

On the lowest level you have the party, a temporary gathering for a specific purpose. In gameplay joining a party means you have a separate channel for discussion and possibly shared experience.

Next level is the guild which is composed of people who hold the same long term goals. Like organised crime, a mining organisation, a trade guild etc... These groups would need a forum more than a chat. They could have a chat but it'd be used mostly for offtopic or when important issues are discussed rapidly among online players. But I think in a guild many players wont be online at the same times so a forum should be there to make sure everyone in the guild gets informed. I mean an ingame forum, the players shouldn't need to make their own forum on the net. Perhaps make a forum interface in the game and have the forum on a website so players don't have to log in to read the latest posts.

On a very high level you can join a kingdom/empire/nation. This would be quite a lot like a guild. I don't know what features may be needed to support forming a kingdom. The major difference between this game and others could simply be that you're allowed to be a member of several guilds at the same time. One player should be able to be a member of a country, several guilds and a party at the same time.

Does that include me? I'd go check, but I forgot my pass.

Yeah, that includes you

Did you actualy forget, or is your password not working? I've noticed sometimes TikiWiki gets confused between the two, and so you need to prepend your password with your user name. For example, as I'm "admin" and my password is "pass", the password I would enter is "adminpass". If that don't work for you, I'll reset it

Success! Thanks.

I... I have authority. Must... resist... urge to misuse...

As for pre-game history, how about a legendary polis (Atlantis?), or race (like the ancient race in Starcraft), or places (forests, cave, swamps, parallel dimensions...)? And have it so that discovering such a legendary thing rewards with some big thing. As an example, in Dransik (I think it's called Ashen Empires now), you had to kill the supervillian and have 1,000,000 gp to create a guild. And you probably also got some very valuable items and stuff.

You don't actually have to code kingdoms and stuff into the game, you know. CantrII, which has been mentioned before, can do fine without any such thing. All social relationships are defined by the players, as well as location names and laws.

Just to give you some ideas for epic gameplay, look at Dwarf Fortress: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ It does not look very nice, in fact, it's difficult to get into the game. But I must say that I have never seen a game with comparable scope and detail, neither commercial nor free games.

Dustin, are you offering to build up a MMORPG on fly?

It's been a long Monday... sorry to ask the dreaded question, but it's for your own good:
Do you have artists in the team ? You know, the group of people who will draw a few graphics...let's say: as many tiles and sprites as what's in Diablo2.

Start with programmers art. I wouldn't mind playing this game even if it was ugly as hell and objects as billboards. That's how unique this game is, I play CantrII because it's an experience for something other than my eyes.

Cantr is definitely not something one plays for its eye-candy. But still definitely worth playing, and probably more RPG-y than most other computer RPGs.

This should be settled as fast as possible between those interested. Some people may immediately aim for an improved MUD, but I can see "the next WoW" in some people'e eyes.
I don't read this thread often, so let me just remind of an earlier post:

People who played a MUD or similar have a better view of what can be done at a indie programmer's level. I pointed at the amount of artwork, but even then, I'm certain only hardcore network programmers can achieve real-time smooth movement with more than several characters at a time (and people here talk about whole realms!

Retroremakes recently posted about a multiplayer Ultima game : maybe there are ideas to borrow there, in terms of user interface and doability.

^ i think we should start this as an improved MUD.

Just some simplistic 3D to start, and a textual interface.

No, all members get a spot in history! But we need to find something that sets paying people (The people who will support a dedicated server) apart without COMPLETELY throwing out the game balance.

I was looking at a thing called RealmCrafter that a friend of mine recomended some time ago. Does anyone have any experience in this? Would it even be suitable for our kind of game? It does look like a complete engine though, so....

Anyway, if not, than a 'MUD' it is. I happen to have a bit more experience with these anyway Anyway, I'd suggest we turn away from traditional code bases, and make our own, as I doubt any would have the features we want anyway.

A few suggestions:
-We use Allegro for the Client This way we still get text output support, but can use different colours/bitmaps to "spice things up" on all plaforms.
-If we want to port this to a graphical environment (of any sort), I suggest we have a concrete map format that splits the world into zones->tiles. This way, when we get to the graphical bit, we just modify the client to display whatever model/mesh that represents what we want, whilst still sending the same data back to the server.

That actualy gives me an idea, why not "Officialy" support a text based client, but then later have a bunch of users fork from the main project, and modify the client to fit their own needs? Even better, why not create a re-usable lib, that we release to the public, and automates client/server relationships, so the programmer just needs to define functions that respond to these things?
I think that'd take away the pressure of worrying about our interface, atleast for now.

Tell you what, once we get to some sort of agreement on this, I'll start coding on Sunday

Wow, this is one of the craziest MMO threads I've ever seen!

Anyway, if you do manage to get an MMORPG going, getting a server for it will be a small concern. You can get one that will be sufficient for a small amount of users for cheap (get a VPS somewhere), and if your game expands big enough to require more resources, then you should be able to rake in enough donations to cover it.

Basically, getting your game engine going and getting the basic game setup is the first concern here. Artistry/modeling/music comes after you have a demo going to show whoever you get to do it that you are serious. A website is of little concern until you have something to show on it. Server maintenance isn't necessary because you don't have/need a server yet. Level design is towards the end as well. Story writing is somewhat necessary so you know what your engine has to be able to do, but a fully refined story is also of relatively little importance. A [read: single] dictator who will coordinate the project is very important. A group people gets nowhere without direction. A group of people coordinating a project also get nowhere. You want a single person who will run the show.

That, IMO, is a horrible idea. Then you end up with tons of users, all using different clients (which may or may not be using different cheats or hacks to give them advantage), so it's hard to unify everyone.

Here's what i think we could do:

We could go super low-tech and make this in GameMaker^[1]

We could use that realm crafter engine you mentioned

We could write our own graphics library

Or we could write an engine in openGL.

I'd apt for GM or openGl.

An allegro client sounds nice too.

So what do you think we should use?

Oh, and i'm not great programmer... Just to remind you... but i could work with an engine.

Game Maker and MMORPG are two terms that should only be associated with each other in a Monday thread! The fact that you would even consider/apt for using game maker shows that you aren't ready to tackle a project of this under taking.

You should reuse as much code from other sources as possible. You have no reason to write your own graphics library, unless you need something specific that isn't do-able in another library (unlikely).

I don't know what the realm crafter engine is (didn't click the link), but if it meets your needs use it. If not, make your own, or find one that does.

Well, game maker is the only game editor I'VE ever used [Hence the "Super low-tech ]. I have LITTLE openGL experience, but other than that, i mostly make games with darkBASIC, or just C++.

I've never heard of this before. I looked it up on Google and I think it looks like a fairly good idea.working on a few ideas for a story. I've got three right now, but I'm trying to flesh them out a bit first. If anyone wants to suggest some ideas, feel free.

A MUD would be OK, but, as BAF said, then we have two different clients accessing one server. :-\

I thought you guys were.

That said, I will one day make a MMORPG but it will be an offer to myself and not anyone else.

O.k, looking back over that idea, maybe it is a little stupid But can you blame a guy after half a carton of beer for trying? Maybe the "library" should just be a dev. thingy... I would still like both a MUD and 3d MMO for this anyway.

"Game Maker" Is the bane of all existence. Several years ago in high-school, I did a complete Break-Out clone in C++ based off my own engine and Allegro - sharders, effective resource management, etc and the teacher marked be down because "I didn't use Game Maker" (not even a part of the course!). Mole.

Anyway, M.U.D library for a start it is. Like I said, I presume I can start that Monday, however does anyone know of any good, free networking libs? Multiplatform, of course. I really, really don't feel like writing my own protocol using sockets/using ftp & http...

Hmmm... This sentence makes me think... Have you ever done any network coding before? Doesn't seem so. Read up on TCP and UDP and proper game networking (there was this Zoidcom library somewhere)

Someone said something about a language already being developed... it would be cool if the game let people use their own language, and then, when you needed to talk to someone in game who didn't speak your language, you would have to find an interpreter or learn some of the language, just like it would have been done before.

just a thought..

wiseguy: Bad idea. People already have enough difficulty communicating and grouping with same goals and time schedules, now if the game ALSO adds its own language barrier...

Yea, people of the same language can barley communicate as it is, much less having to LEARN a language just to play a game.

However, a simple rune script for some objects might be kinda cool, but not the whole game!

They wouldn't have to learn a language. Whenever a player "hears" something, the game just determines if that's a language they understand. If not, then it just displays a bunch of randoms letters or some Latin or something. But it's still a horrible idea.

Oh, i thought he meant creating a language for the game...

My bad.

Would be quite hard..

By the way, is it the largest topic ever?

What, this one? I'll go look.

This isn't the largest topic ever. I've seen two go over 200 (one of them was mine! YAY!) I don't remember what the record was, but it was even bigger than that.

It would be still easier then other challenges I have faced and overcame in my life. I am completely confident in my ability to face and overcome this particular challenge.

Terminator ready. (Dustin)

Edit: Would then you help to make the project, on the fly then?

Cantr feature of the day: You can hunt Gorillas with a dungfork.
There's a lot of weird shit you can do in this game, but you have to imagine it all inside your mind...

What I meant about the language barriers is like this: you have your town or country you've built, and you want to trade with a town or something that you've found, but they speak a different in game language. In order to trade with them, you have to spend time and resources to "learn" their language, or hire an in game person who can interpret for you...

Marvin

Ah, ok. But still... There is enough of a language barrier .

Ok, where does Rick Piller goes in? hahahhahahahahaha This is getting out of hand.

You can also attack a bear with a bone knife, or even your bare fists, and survive it without a scratch.

Is Cantr SO interesting? I mean, if its really that good, im going to play it.

Just try it and see if it works for you. It's slow, though, so you won't hit intense action on day 1, and sometimes an in-game conversation takes a week or more in RL.
Anyway, it's free, and it doesn't take a lot of your time, so might as well try...

Im reading the Wiki. Seems to be pretty good. ( I like slow-text based MMORPG's ) Seems like you really can do anything. Cant wait for account approval!

Is wiki one of them? link?

All I can say is wow. OK so can someone summarize where we are with this? I wouldn't mind somehow being part of it after all.

OK, I'm going to go after the language feature someone mentioned. I like the idea that different villages will have different languages (in-game made up languages). When a person types and the other person doesn't speak the languages, it comes up all scrambled. As their language skill improves with that language less letters/words are scrambled and start to make sense.

So basically if I'm from village A and you are from village A when we type to each other it shows up as normal english(read local rl language). When I try to talk to a player from village B it just comes up like "asdfyl llyalkfs ulauyl". Somehow as they learn village A's language it starts to come together "Hi, weulyme tu vileg A" With this they don't have to master the language to understand it, just get enough to be able to figure it out. Of course if they really wanted to they could become an expert at it and act as translators for others. Eventually it would end up being "Hi, welcome to village A". THe learning curve would be high and take some great time, so as to make people who spend the time to learn it a commodity to others.

Also, I think a limited resources is a good idea, but has to be done correctly. Firstly, there has to be a ton of it. Secondly, there has to be a way for more to be created, but only if done so by the user. ie. planting trees. If everyone cuts all the tress (a near impossible feat in my mind) and they don't plant any trees, then the tress will eventually die off. Nature itself would plant it's own trees also, but if the cutting downs is faster than nature can plant for an extended time period, then it will happen.

Well, separating people by language is interesting. But doing it as a game mechanic...
In Cantr you create characters in the language of your choice and that character has to learn languages ingame. Even if you as player understand english, your character is not allowed to speak english until learning the language has been roleplayed. You're not allowed to use out of character knowledge to give your characters an advantage.

As a Swede I have a great advantage over English characters, but when I meet Turks or other nationalities I'm gonna have to learn the language myself. There's no game mechanics that translates for me. I tried to learn some Turkish from an ingame note when I met one of them. It was hard just to pussle words together and I had no idea of correct grammar. But it was an interesting conversation and brought a great challenge to the game.

Separating players by languages is an interesting idea if you are content with a small, hardcore hobby MMO. If you intend to make money from this MMO, you're significantly limiting your subscriber base from the get-go.

why not make a simple translator

Well, hi again...

I've had some health issues recently, so haven't had much of a chance to get this MUD library rollin. Right now, I'm looking at finishing my compartmentised, Entity-based Engine (Dubbed Neodymium), after which I'll right some of the components for a Text-based game. Could still use some help on the networking side, though.

So, uh, Rick Piller, where'd you want to fit in?