[official mascot/logo] yes, I think there needs to be one
Dennis

[edit front append]
If you're new to this discussion, please after reading this opening post, also read this wiki page on which amarillion keeps a list of the suggestions made so far.
[/edit]

[append Important Legal Issue]
"Authors who submit their suggestions/logos/mascots in this process will give up all rights. The suggestions/logos/mascots put on the voting page and the gallery and maybe into the library afterwards will be public domain(giftware just like Allegro itself) and may be freely used in any way. By submitting an entry you will agree on the previous terms."
[/append]

A brief summary of what has happened so far:

  • spellcaster started an inofficial logo challenge;

  • this spawned quite a few logos(if yours is missing, just edit the page and add it);

  • among those logos is a vectorized recreation of Mr. Peitz' "Alex The Allegator";

  • then, Johan Peitz responded;

  • several discussions on IRC and in that thread later, people seem to agree that it would be good to just create an entirely new mascot/logo for Allegro, because using Alex The Allegator would make the license more complicated, whereas an entirely new mascot could just be given away within the current giftware license;

As that logo challenge thread has grown quite large and as it doesn't seem to get attention from any of those "in charge to make decisions", I have decided to create this new thread.

What are the goals of this thread?
1.) To create a list of community member suggested animals+name+characteristics+reasons why it should be the allegro mascot
(NOTE: no art will be created in this first step!)

2.) To let the community choose the three most popular mascots from the resulting list of step 1.). I'd ask Matthew to put them into a poll on the front page, as that is probably the easiest way to get a result(only members should be allowed to vote).
(NOTE: still no art up to here)

3.) As soon as the poll from step 2.) is closed, artists and non-artists can go and create logos/mascots based on the three most popular suggestions. There needs to be a time limit under which these will be created or else no decision is ever going to be made. (and there need to be some rules for the entries, e.g. they have to be rescalable vector art)
[update/edit] actually, this step will be divided into two steps of which the first one will be a long stretched sketching phase, where people won't create final masterpieces but merely do sketches, discuss them, improve them and then go on to create the final polished versions

4.) The community would then again choose their favourite logo/mascot from the results of step 3.)

5.) The winning logo/mascot from step 4.) will be included within the lib and will be the "official" Allegro logo/mascot.
[update/edit] This is not guaranteed(by the main allegro devs) and actually this step will be more like "the winning logo/mascot from step 4.) will be presented to the main Allegro devs and the Allegro dictator, along with the suggestion to make it the "official" mascot/logo as created and chosen by the community"
[update/edit] but of course nobody can/will be forced to use it

Other things that the official mascot might be used for after it has been decided upon:

  • may be featured in a new Allegro demo game as the main character

  • may be featured doing different activities in the manual

  • may be leading through a few introductional tutorials about using the library

  • your ideas here...

Ok now, first things first, let's start with step 1.)
Suggest an animal that should be the mascot for Allegro. Suggest a name for that mascot as well. Give a few characteristics that this particular instance of that animal has(e.g. quick, lively, bright, bookish, collectivist, individualist, wise,...). Also give reasons on why you think that your suggestion should be the mascot for Allegro.

It is really important to give those characteristics and a reason, because this will later aid people in creating the pictures of those mascots. The aim is to create a mascot with character after all and not just some empty iconified animal stereotype with no character at all.

amarillion

Good idea. This process is lengthy, but like I said in the other thread I don't think there is a way around that so we just have to deal.

I've got a mascotte suggestion:

- Allegrotron -

Allegrotron is not an animal, but a cute little pet robot that likes to do fun things. He is very handy and agile, and enjoys being programmed to play video games against human opponents. He is looking for human friends to program him and play with.

I think Allegrotron should be the mascotte because it symbolizes what allegro stands for: geeks having fun programming and fooling around with video games.

(I'd put up Allan the Allegrosaurus again as well, but I think that was shot down pretty effectively in the other thread :-/ )

Elias

I think, the logo could be independent from the mascot. Of course, the logo also could contain the mascot, but quite often the logo of something is very simple, without displaying the mascot.

I also have a suggestion, picking up Alan the Allegrosaurus - I would like to give it wings, and make it Alice the Allgedron, the little winged dragon of Allegro. Unlike it's old, heavy, slow and outdated dinosaur predecessor, it's fast and lively and bright, with a clean API, motivating to write many games :)

(And using Alice for A5 would mean retroactively using Alan for A4..)

Peter Wang
Quote:

The winning logo/mascot from step 4.) will be included within the lib and will be the "official" Allegro logo/mascot.

When was this decided?

Thomas Fjellstrom
Quote:

When was this decided?

And this is the reason we need a decider.

To me, it just makes sense. If we have no logo/mascot so far, the one that everyone eventually decides on gets to be official.

What exactly is wrong with that?

amarillion
spellcaster

Animal: Elephant.
Name: Emil, the elegant Allegrophant

Elephants are just cool ;)

Evert

The Alex logo has been in the Allegro for a very long time, and I think it was contributed by Johan himself. It also shows up as the icon for Allegro's homepage.
Now, I didn't see Johan say that he wants it removed, just that Alex is his character and no one can make Alex the Allegator games or use thename "Alex the Allegator" except with permission from him. I think that's fine and quite distinct from using Alex as the Allegro mascot. Some discussion with Johan might be good to clarify some points. We should probably add "Alex the Allegator is a trademark of Free Lunch Design and used with permission" or something like that.

Quote:

will be featured in a new Allegro demo game as the main character

In that case, we can as well go backward and the character of Ted the Scater as our mascot. Or have a "family" of mascots that Ted is partof (Nintendo has a few character icons as well).

Quote:

will be featured doing different activities in the manual

Can you give an example of how you imagine this?

Quote:

will be leading through a few introductional tutorials about using the library

Personally, I've hated tutorials that feature cute animals to explain me how to do things since I left kindergarten, but I suppose it's ok. Again though, how do you see this work?

As for an Allegro logo, we have one:

{"name":"cooltextUtopia128.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/9\/b9f870f3f9fc0683991898dca82e7c10.png","w":432,"h":134,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/9\/b9f870f3f9fc0683991898dca82e7c10"}cooltextUtopia128.png

EDIT: if we're going for the elephant, Elias can be the mascot. ;)

Peter Wang
Quote:

What exactly is wrong with that?

It sounded like a decision had been reached. I didn't see anything on [AD], nor anything definitive on these forums (as far as I can tell), so I wanted to know where this discussion was had (IRC, I suppose) and between whom.

Anyway, I'm not totally opposed, but I'm not too excited by the idea either. Seems like a distraction.

Dennis
Peter Wang said:

When was this decided?

That's the problem of it. It hasn't really been decided yet. The whole purpose of this thread is to push forward to making a decision and to get *your*(and that of other devs) attention, so that you can participate in the discussion. I think it's a good idea to let that decision be made by the community as a whole. Another option would be for a great dictator over Allegro to step up and say "This is it <period>.". In that latter case we can all save us the time and the trouble. Who is that great dictator/fearless leader? Who is in charge? Who makes the decisions?

Evert said:

Some discussion with Johan might be good to clarify some points. We should probably add "Alex the Allegator is a trademark of Free Lunch Design and used with permission" or something like that.

That's why the result of the previous discussion was that we need something new and unique, because then the giftware license doesn't need to be changed/restricted at all.

Evert said:

Can you give an example of how you imagine this?

Yes, for example the mascot holding a brush and a painters pallette could be displayed as the section header for the graphics and drawing functions. A piano playing mascot could be used for the sound and music routines. etc. See the examples, created by Matt Smith to which I linked in here.

Evert said:

Again though, how do you see this work?

There'd be a version of the mascot with a long gray beard, glasses and a doctors hat and some pointing device, who would explain basic functionalities with charts, a blackboard, pictures and talking bubbles. That version might also be featured in "nice to know" boxes and "common mistakes".

append:

Peter Wang said:

Anyway, I'm not totally opposed, but I'm not too excited by the idea either. Seems like a distraction.

If you're worried that this will add a lot of workload. Well it won't, at least not until decisions are being made for changes to the manual (with header pics of the mascot and those previously mentioned tutorials).

Evert
Quote:

Who is that great dictator/fearless leader?

I think I'm still the dictator on account of no one else wanting to take on that title on the same grounds as me wanting to pass it on (lack of time).
That said, I do think of Peter as the "de facto" Dictator.

Quote:

because then the giftware license doesn't need to be changed/restricted at all.

The giftware license deals with Allegro. Possible use of Alex the Allegator in the documentation and on the website is a separate issue, I think. Alex isn't actually part of Allegro (well... I suppose he is the default icon as well, so in that sense, he is there). I don't think this makes it nescessary to change the license in any way...

Quote:

Yes, for example the mascot holding a brush and a painters pallette could be displayed as the section header for the graphics and drawing functions. A piano playing mascot could be used for the sound and music routines. etc. See the examples, created by Matt Smith to which I linked in here.

Ok. Well, as I said, I don't like cute animals in manuals or tutorials, but maybe that's just me.

Dennis
Evert said:

I think I'm still the dictator on account of no one else wanting to take on that title on the same grounds as me wanting to pass it on (lack of time).
That said, I do think of Peter as the "de facto" Dictator.

So, do you have the balls to at least make the decision to approve this way of finding,deciding upon the new logo/mascot? Doesn't really need much of your time, all you need to confirm is point 5.) of the OP. That is, confirm that the logo/mascot that is found by the whole process as decribed in the OP of this thread, will be the offical logo/mascot. Whatever you do, make a decision please. (I can't stand the lack of decisions being made here.;D) And if you don't approve that way, suggest something else.

Evert said:

Ok. Well, as I said, I don't like cute animals in manuals or tutorials, but maybe that's just me.

Well, it's a game development library after all. Time to add some style, soul and character to it(imo). Also, more people might be bothered to read the manual if it has pictures in it.

amarillion
Quote:

The giftware license deals with Allegro. Possible use of Alex the Allegator in the documentation and on the website is a separate issue, I think. Alex isn't actually part of Allegro (well... I suppose he is the default icon as well, so in that sense, he is there). I don't think this makes it nescessary to change the license in any way...

But what is really needed is something that is part of Allegro. Alex can't be part of Allegro, so we need something else.

Elias

Well, the way Alex was picked as default icon was just, Johan made it for his game, people liked it, and it was included, as alex.xpm first, without further purpose I think, just so people could use it as logo:

Quote:

r1275 | tjaden | 2001-10-02 03:35:16 +0200 (Tue, 02 Oct 2001) | 2 lines

Added Alex the Allegator icon by Johan Peitz

Then much later a .png version and an inlined .c version were added, so it could be used as default icon for all Allegro programs.

And I don't think we really need a much stricter process now, with a dictator picking an official logo (or sanctioning an official way to create one). People who want to create a logo should do so because they like to, so it wouldn't be wasted time creating it, whether it is included as official logo later or not. Most of the steps in the outlined process so far seem to be good for that :) But if e.g. no good logo comes out of it (like in the last logo competition many years ago), there shouldn't be any pressure to select one :P

Thomas Fjellstrom

Eh. That sounds way to wishy washy. As it is theres nothing that defines Allegro. And imo, I think there should be.

Evert
Quote:

So, do you have the balls to at least make the decision to approve this way of finding,deciding upon the new logo/mascot? Doesn't really need much of your time, all you need to confirm is point 5.) of the OP. That is, confirm that the logo/mascot that is found by the whole process as decribed in the OP of this thread, will be the offical logo/mascot.

I will not. If you really want me to take a stand on this, then my stand is that something in the way of a mascot is thought of and then proposed to the developers who get to decide if they like it or not and if it gets included or not. In that sense, it's like any other part you might want to contribute to Allegro. Essentially, this is along the same line as Elias' post above.
That's mostly my personal opinion but you can take it as an "official" statement unless someone like Peter or Elias makes another one (I deem it too much a personal statement to be hardline about it).

So bottom line, come up with something (collectively) and then post it like you would anyother patch.

EDIT: the below post is very sensible too.

LennyLen

Perhaps "Official" is too strict a term. Perhaps it should be presented as a "default"/"generic" logo that people can use unless they wish to create their own. That way, everyone still gets to have input into a community-based logo, but nobody is comitted to using it.

Thomas Fjellstrom

Thats what we have now. And people seem to think its not enough. Circles.

do_circle(world, world->w/2, world->h/2, world->w/2, 0, committee);

Dennis
Elias said:

But if e.g. no good logo comes out of it (like in the last logo competition many years ago), there shouldn't be any pressure to select one

I agree. If all final entries lack quality and nobody likes any of it then none of them should get picked.

Evert said:

If you really want me to take a stand on this, then my stand is that something in the way of a mascot is thought of and then proposed to the developers who get to decide if they like it or not and if it gets included or not. In that sense, it's like any other part you might want to contribute to Allegro.

Fair enough. It is however a huge amount of work to create something at even semi-professional quality. That's why I think that nobody is going to put a lot of effort into designing a mascot/logo, if it hasn't been previously agreed upon at least the character of the mascot and that the chances are high that if the final graphical representation of that character is any good, it will be put into the library.
This isn't about code, so it won't destroy any compatibility, functionality or anything at all. I don't think the same standards as for code contributions need to apply here.

In other words: I want the developers to monitor and comment on the process of finding the mascot from the beginning on, to save anyone the trouble of pointlessly wasting time at creating something, that by default doesn't have any chance of getting in anyway.

LennyLen said:

Perhaps it should be presented as a "default"/"generic" logo that people can use unless they wish to create their own. That way, everyone still gets to have input into a community-based logo, but nobody is comitted to using it.

I agree but I still think that it would be good to have something that the library can identify with.
It is correct that nobody should be forced to use whatever logo/mascot comes out of this, but it should at least be encouraged to use that logo/mascot, by using it on all official websites, in the documentation, etc..

And also, to minimize the chances that that default logo/mascot will totally suck, I think the process as described earlier will ensure a somewhat high level of quality and will bring artists and non-artists alike the needed motivation to get creative on this issue. Also, since the community will vote about it, the majority of people using the library will like the logo/mascot that gets chosen. Maybe it should be a rule that the winning entry has to have at least a two thirds majority. What do you think?

spellcaster

If you don't like the allegrophant... what about an...

allegrOwl?

Thomas Fjellstrom

Basically theres two choices here, and one needs to be picked:

1. Start looking for a logo and/or mascot and general overall theme for things like the manual, website and who knows what else.

2. Do nothing, leave everything as it is, decide on nothing at all, and advertise to people that allegro isn't serious, its only for kiddies making useless trinkets, theres no leadership, no order, and no future.

edit: Take a look at KDE's new theme. It could not be more polished and slick. Noone will take us seriously if Allegro sticks with the same old decades old crap it has now.

edit2: I should say, we have some actual talented artists wanting to contribute, and people are just getting in the way. Do I think we should cater to them. Yes. You either have people with talent, or you don't its as simple as that.

Peter Wang

Like Evert, I think a mascot in a manual would just put me off. It really would scream "kiddie".

If you want something decisive, here it is: we're not putting a mascot in the manual. makedoc does not handle images. Since makedoc will be the documentation generator for the foreseeable future, I don't want any distractions retrofitting image support into makedoc.

If you want to update the look of the web site, write alternative tutorials targetted at a younger audience, render a new demo game intro, etc. that's all fine.

Thomas Fjellstrom

Yay! More Non Decisions! Lets do NOTHING! Right. You do realize theres likely to be several contributers and possible contributers just give up on Allegro due to how they are handled?

Everytime a non code question is asked, the Answer is always NO or "Lets not do anything". Its really frustrating to at least ONE person in this thread.

spellcaster

Um.. I think "Allegro is not going to have a mascot" is a pretty clear decision.

Peter Wang

Did you just need someone to say "yes"?

amarillion

Yup, it's a decision. Not a very good one I think.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Quote:

Um.. I think "Allegro is not going to have a mascot" is a pretty clear decision.

Oh sure. People want it, are willing to do the work, and the answer is no. Ok. Fine. You guys don't care at all.

Lets just let all the momentum that has been building die. and along with it, goes allegro one last time.

If you think I'm being melodramatic, just wait, if this staunch attitude towards progress doesn't change, it'll mean the end of Allegro as a community, and finally as a project.

Peter Wang

Which part of this did you miss?

Quote:

If you want to update the look of the web site, write alternative tutorials targetted at a younger audience, render a new demo game intro, etc. that's all fine.

Here it is again: you can update the web site and demo game if you like, including the use of a mascot.

Do you need a rubber stamp on that or something? Want me to change the licence to say: "you must embed this logo in every program that links with Allegro"?

spellcaster

Geez, if you want someone to make a decision, you have to deal with it. If you want a specific decision, you should either try to to convince everybody that it's the best thing, or get into the position that allows you to make the decision.

Just for the record - my challenge was meant to be a fun way for people to come up with some logos, doodle a bit, doing some creative work. It was not meant to create an official logo.

I really like the current way - somebody creates something and makes it available. If you like something, use it. If you don't, create something else, don't mention allegro at all or whatever.

Creating a new mascot or fancy logotype won't do the trick. Create a nice game, tell people how easy it was to code using this awesome allegro lib - that might do the trick.

Thomas Fjellstrom

WE don't want just some unofficial hodge podge of stuff. I and Others want a more streamlined more attractive consistent front for Allegro. If its not official, its not really worth doing.

I'm sick and tired of people getting shut out and shot down like this. I once suggested and volunteered to handle some PR work, and that was shot down. People here want some clean and consistent artwork for all facets of the allegro project, and they too are shot down. This community is feeling less and less inviting all the time.

Did I mention its frustrating?

Quote:

Geez, if you want someone to make a decision, you have to deal with it.

That wasn't a decision ::) There was no rationality for any of it besides that graphics in the manual are too kiddy. Yuh. That was more of the same "Lets not do anything".

Dennis
Peter Wang said:

If you want to update the look of the web site, write alternative tutorials targetted at a younger audience, render a new demo game intro, etc. that's all fine.

Ok thanks for that. (I disagree that anything with cartoons in it necessarily means it's targeted at kids though. As the content will still be very technical and serious, there's no way, anyone would be possibly capable of reading the mascot explaining that stuff as childish or silly.)

Peter Wang said:

Want me to change the licence to say: "you must embed this logo in every program that links with Allegro"?

No, that's not wanted I think. But if the community comes up with a logo/mascot through the process as described in the OP, we demand that it gets included in the library.:)

Alright, now that we got the noise settled a bit, I suggest we continue with step 1.) from the OP then.
Remember to give charecteristics and reasons to your suggestions.
And don't think you're being ignored, just because nobody comments on your suggestions. We're just collecting suggestions now, not rating them or making any comments.

LennyLen
Quote:

I disagree that anything with cartoons in it necessarily means it's targeted at kids though


Yup:

{"name":"592638","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/6\/e\/6e0aa2337736bd6d7b7fca3a2ed0198c.png","w":400,"h":481,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/6\/e\/6e0aa2337736bd6d7b7fca3a2ed0198c"}592638

Thomas Fjellstrom

Not to mention:
gnu-head-banner.png
http://www.digital-crossing.net/images/free-bsd.gif

And many others like them.

amarillion

Back on thread, here is another mascot suggestion:

Don Allegato

Don Allegato is the Latin Lover Alleycat. Allegato is cool. He has style. He has all the sex appeal that the game developers themselves lack :)
Don Allegato would make a good logo for allegro because it would symbolize the style that we want and programmer's art often lacks.

spellcaster
Quote:

that wasn't a decision

Um... you wanted a dictator to step in. That's what they do. They dictate. There is no need for them to argue.

Dennis
spellcaster said:

Um... you wanted a dictator to step in. That's what they do. They dictate. There is no need for them to argue.

Yes and in this case the decision is:

Peter Wang said:

Here it is again: you can update the web site and demo game if you like, including the use of a mascot.

So, more signal in this thread now and less noise please.

I'll suggest something as well:
Amanda The Antelope
She's quick, friendly, bright and lively.
She should be the mascot for Allegro, because Allegro is quick, lively and bright as well and besides, she can be the substitute girlfriend for every Allegroid who doesn't have one. Amanda loves you and she will never let you down.

amarillion

Ok, Let's have a few that don't start with A...

juvinious

KDE mascot ftw:
{"name":"konqi-klogo-official-400x500.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/f\/2f66ab2086da51fba5c101fc83543bf4.png","w":400,"h":500,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/f\/2f66ab2086da51fba5c101fc83543bf4"}konqi-klogo-official-400x500.png

Evert
Quote:

It is however a huge amount of work to create something at even semi-professional quality. That's why I think that nobody is going to put a lot of effort into designing a mascot/logo, if it hasn't been previously agreed upon at least the character of the mascot and that the chances are high that if the final graphical representation of that character is any good, it will be put into the library.

Sure, but you wouldn't do a final high-res full detail model before you had a proof of concept (or an approved proof of concept)?

Quote:

This isn't about code, so it won't destroy any compatibility, functionality or anything at all.

True, but besides the point for the process of making something that you propose for review. Let's put it another way: I'm not going to give a blank "yes" on the simple statement that Allegro needs a mascot, but show me a concept and you may sell me. Ok, so that's what you're trying to do here.

Quote:

In other words: I want the developers to monitor and comment on the process of finding the mascot from the beginning on,

I read everything posted in the Allegro development forum and mailinglist (except when my spamfilter catches the messages, which is becoming more common, unfortunately).

I'm with Peter on not wanting cartoons or mascots or something like that in the manual, but that doesn't exclude websites or wiki pages or custom icons or logos to use as a splash screen for a game. I can very well imagine that we would make a collection of splashscreens or Allegro logos to display for download (note: I don't decide that we will, but I say I can imagine that we would).

Quote:

I disagree that anything with cartoons in it necessarily means it's targeted at kids though. As the content will still be very technical and serious, there's no way, anyone would be possibly capable of reading the mascot explaining that stuff as childish or silly.

I didn't say it is nescessarily targeted at kids, but it does look childish to me. If you want me to take something seriously, then present it in a way that makes me take it seriously. An over use of cartoons just doesn't do that for me. Again, this is a personal issue.

Richard Phipps

Vote for me, and I will destroy Allegro and make it better! 8-)

Elias

/me votes for Richard Phipps. What are we voting on btw.? The new mascot? :)

Richard Phipps

The Future Of Allegro!

Dennis
Evert said:

Let's put it another way: I'm not going to give a blank "yes" on the simple statement that Allegro needs a mascot, but show me a concept and you may sell me.

Well then maybe we should insert another step between current steps 1 and 2. 1b) in which rough sketches for all the suggestions will be made and then we'll decide upon the next steps? Would you approve that?

Evert said:

If you want me to take something seriously, then present it in a way that makes me take it seriously. An over use of cartoons just doesn't do that for me.

So, seeing that you're using a cartoon for an avatar, does that imply that you're not interested in presenting yourself seriously or that you don't want people to take yourself seriously? :-/ (Well, don't mind me, just being silly here and could not resist making that completely irrelevant remark. Please, forgive my doomed soul as it doesn't know any better.)

Trent Gamblin

I think it would be nice to have an official mascot or logo. Alex seems quite nice, but if it could cause problems, creating a new one specifically as a mascot sounds like a good idea to me.

Evert
Quote:

1b) in which rough sketches for all the suggestions will be made and then we'll decide upon the next steps? Would you approve that?

No.
The concept scetches that I'd like to see would be somewhere half through your step three. But as I've already said, get something together as a community, have a scetch of how things will look and then submitit. If there's no good reason to reject it (but cartoons in the manual are out), then it will likely be accepted, at which point youget to make the more detailed artwork.

Quote:

So, seeing that you're using a cartoon for an avatar, does that imply that you're not interested in presenting yourself seriously or that you don't want people to take yourself seriously?

I'm not writing Professor Sikbok's Guide to Allegro or Professor Sikbok's Notes on Stellar Evolution, and he doesn't appear as a support character in a distinctive pose when I discuss something. By the same token, having Alex as a page icon for the on-line version of the manual is different from having him show up doing something cute and quasi-relevant for each topic. That's the distinction I want to make.

Aside, holy wars have been fought over the question of wether the work of Marten Toonder (the guy behind the character of Sikbok as well as many others) can be charactarised as "a cartoon". I'm firmly in the camp that says they cannot be, but it's hard to explain why if you're unfamiliar with his work (and seeing how it's a very Dutch cultural thing, it's not surprising if you're not). The stories are actually written text, with the images in a strip above the text, and while the images definately supplement the story, the text stands very well on its own and qualifies the stories as "literature". Well, as I said, holy wars have been fought over this.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Quote:

I said, holy wars have been fought over this.

As have wars been fought over other animated or non animated caricatures and their status as "cartoons".

amarillion

Updated The wiki page
Dennis, could you add this link to the OP for those new to the discussion?

When I said, "let's have one that doesn't start with an A", that doesn't mean I'm really against it, just that I'd like to encourage a little more variation.

Kibiz0r
Quote:

When I said, "let's have one that doesn't start with an A", that doesn't mean I'm really against it, just that I'd like to encourage a little more variation.

Ask and you shall receive.

Leggy the Allegro Code-Crawler

Sort of like a millipede, Leggy is a many-legged creature that enjoys games, because he can button mash and combo like nobody's business; and programming, because he can type G words per minute. Having lots of legs has it's advantages.

I envision Leggy communicating through signs, a la Wile E. Coyote. But that's really up to individual interpretation.

The reason I thought of this character is because his length allows him to weave throughout the word "Allegro" and his primary feature ties in nicely with the name of the library: Allegro.

Oh, I almost forgot: He is also very awkward around female code-crawlers and asks for help from his geeky friends on a programming forum. 8-)

amarillion

Nice idea... I think my personal top-three thus far are Alice, Allegrotron and Leggy.

GullRaDriel

Alice is already owned.

It is an internet provider.

Dennis
amarillion said:

Dennis, could you add this link to the OP for those new to the discussion?

Done. I also added a short summary of what appears to be the maintainers/devs point of view to the issue, so that noone can be fooled to think that the resulting mascot of this process is guaranteed to get included within the lib.

Evert said:

But as I've already said, get something together as a community, have a scetch of how things will look and then submitit. If there's no good reason to reject it (but cartoons in the manual are out), then it will likely be accepted

Right, so be it.

I also have another suggestion:
Paca, Paquita or Francisca The White Pigeon
She is intelligent, is peaceful and helpful and free.
She should be the mascot for Allegro, because then the slogan "Allegro - Free As In Bird(not beer)" can be used. Also, white pigeons are a peace symbol and birds have also always been a symbol for freedom, which the Allegro giftware license provides to the developer using it.

Keep the suggestions coming everybody, no matter how silly you may think others may find yours. (That's why we will take votes at some point.)
Btw, how many more weeks do you think should we keep taking suggestions, before we move on to the next step?

Evert
Quote:

Evert has said that there will definitely be no cartoons in the manual.

Peter and me both, actually. To be completely correct, Peter said this in so many words first. I don't think it particularly relevant who said what for the purpose of the wiki page, so I might decide to edit the wiki page later.
Anyway, I'll shut up now and let you guys work something out.

Elias

I slightly edited the introduction paragraph on the wiki, as "the Allegro maintainers" isn't really all that clear a term. I for one would like pictures in the documentation where it makes sense (e.g. for the different blending functions), and if technically possible (the current source format still is this horrible makedoc, which means no - so probably no point thinking about it right now).

Quote:

We should probably add "Alex the Allegator is a trademark of Free Lunch Design and used with permission" or something like that.

Thinking about this a bit, I think it is a very bad idea. Anything in Allegro's official distribution should be "giftware", i.e. you should be able to use it for whatever you want. So unless Johan officially releases "alex.png" under a permissive license (and totally understandable if he doesn't want to), we indeed should remove it from SVN.

Trent Gamblin

My mascot suggestion:

Albert the Albatross

[edit]

He's high flying, free, and efficient.

Slartibartfast

Maybe a List of Animal Names will help people come up with new ideas?

How about... Herbert the Human? He is smart and adaptable, and his hands (complete with opposable thumbs) allow him to create and use his own tools. He is smart enough to handle things on his own, as well as give out advice to other people in need.
Truly, all would want to be like Herbert, he is after all one of the most successful life forms on earth.

Elias

Adam the Ape - he has 4 hands, so he can write code twice as fast.

GameCreator

For those that might need some inspiration:
http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592653
http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592654
http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592655
http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592656

Note two things which are absent in most professional logos:
- Gradients (because they look crappy in black and white faxes)
- Cuddly animal mascots

The best logos also limit the number of colors they use to 2 max.

Just some thoughts.

Michael Jensen
Quote:

WE don't want just some unofficial hodge podge of stuff.

Define "WE".

I honestly don't think we NEED a mascot perse -- people will do what they want -- why should an end user who uses your game need to know what library you used? -- I think it would be neat if we had a mascot -- but I don't see why the head developers/dictators should be bothered with things like updating makedoc, or given extra work, etc.

And if they give the answer you didn't want -- so be it -- just as if they had given the answer you wanted. That power is theirs -- they have a huge work load already.

Quote:

A piano playing mascot could be used for the sound and music routines.

If we kept the elephant, it should be farting for that image.

Quote:

...You guys don't care at all.

That's mature.

Quote:

Don Allegato is the Latin Lover Alleycat

An alley cat sounds cool.

Is there a reason we can't use an Alligator as the allegro mascot? It doesn't have to be alex -- it can be Allie, or Amanda -- Alex's sexy sister.

Quote:

Vote for me, and I will destroy Allegro and make it better!

I totally vote for RP as the new allegro mascot.

amarillion
Quote:

Is there a reason we can't use an Alligator as the allegro mascot? It doesn't have to be alex -- it can be Allie, or Amanda -- Alex's sexy sister.

No, an alligator/allegator is still an option. It's been said that it isn't very original, but we can put it out there and let people vote on that.

Mark Oates

I will be using Alex the Allegator. He has already appeared in "Monster", and Johan is enthusiastic about us adopting the logo for Allegro. There is no reason to kick the dead horse.

Onewing

I prefer to hang with Alex. If not that, maybe Algorithm the Particle (Algy for short).

Mark Oates
Quote:

Algorithm the Particle

;D

BAF

Why the argument? What I got from that decision was that we can go ahead and do this, just don't expect the mascot to be in the manual.

Dennis

Yes BAF, that's basically the result of the "heated" debate(I think there was some misunderstanding in the beginning between some of the participants of this discussion).

Michael Jensen said:

And if they give the answer you didn't want -- so be it -- just as if they had given the answer you wanted. That power is theirs -- they have a huge work load already.

Read the full thread before you make your comments please(in other words: It's unnecessary to comment on things that have been settled already, as it only adds noise and doesn't hold any constructive value to the discussion at all.).

To sum it up for you: There is no argument going on anymore, it was a misunderstanding and now we're continuing with the process of finding a mascot. This will be a lengthy process and the way that it is set up(see OP) will somewhat ensure that the resulting mascot will be widely accepted(because it's created and finally chosen by the community) and that the final graphical representation will be of somewhat high quality(sketches will be made, lots of discussion and constructive criticism will be taking place before the final designs of anyone who wants to do them will be presented for voting again). It won't happen overnight. I expect the whole process to take a few months.
And again, nobody will/can be forced to use whatever we come up with.

(Maybe I should edit the OP to clarify some things.)[edit: inserted some [update/edit]s into the OP to sum up the results of what has been said so far]

I've updated the Mascot Discussion Wiki with the new suggestions. Elias, Trent G., your latest suggestions are still missing a reason that you give in which you explain why it should become the Allegro mascot.

[append]Updated the OP with an important remark about legal issues.

Matt Smith

I did these last year as ideas for using in 'friendly' tutorials, and on my website (which I unfortunately accidently erased :P)

alex-fixing.png
alex-flying.png
{"name":"alex-config.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/a\/aa7c7f48eed22b603430b769018616f0.png","w":320,"h":240,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/a\/aa7c7f48eed22b603430b769018616f0"}alex-config.pngThis one was for an installer.
{"name":"alex-artist.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/4\/44839bcdca52ebd802e21745c3f905e4.png","w":320,"h":240,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/4\/44839bcdca52ebd802e21745c3f905e4"}alex-artist.png

Psychoanalysing my own work, I think I read too many Richard Scarry books as a wee-un.

Paul Pridham

How about a giant, mutant, fire-breathing armadillo. Allegrodillo?

Or a curl-up bug. I like curl-up bugs. Especially giant, mutant ones.
{"name":"Bathynomus_giganteus.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/3\/3398e9e50379f494bb6f761f7b1e2212.jpg","w":640,"h":480,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/3\/3398e9e50379f494bb6f761f7b1e2212"}Bathynomus_giganteus.jpg

Thomas Harte

My suggestion for an official Allegro logo would be the sans-serif capital letter A anthropomorphised such that the two lower juts are legs and the cross bar is extended slightly into arms. The logo would then be the A running from right to left on an archetypal platform game style ledge.

I hope that explains what I'm thinking of. I can't draw, so it'd better...

Andrei Ellman

Just a quickie. I've not read this thread at all (I'm writing this from an Internet terminal in the Isle of Skye), but if we're going to go with a dinosaur as a mascot, I suggest 'Allegrosaurus'.

AE.

amarillion
Matt Smith

Thomas Harte's
http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592665

Andrei Ellman's - version 2 - aka Grozilla
http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592669

Thomas Harte

Matt Smith > great work, that's almost exactly what I was thinking of! In my head he was running the other way, but whatever.

An SVG version of Matt's draft (the large version, not the neat 1bit icon) is attached for anybody else that wants to work on it.

Slartibartfast
Quote:

In my head he was running the other way, but whatever.

<guess>It's a left-handed thing</guess>

Thomas Harte
Quote:

<guess>It's a left-handed thing</guess>

No, I'm essentially right handed (I'm more comfortable drawing circles clockwise, I wear my watch on my right wrist and I always eat with the fork in my right hand, but I also write with my right hand, hold my racket in it for tennis, etc), but I think I was just imagining it running that way because otherwise it would trip over the imaginary 'llegro' that it was presumably standing next to just a moment ago...

EDIT: I suppose there's no reason the logo couldn't have the 'llegro' left on the platform a little way over to the right, having the A either running from it to go on an adventure or running to it to spell Allegro.

Onewing
Quote:

because otherwise it would trip over the imaginary 'llegro' that it was presumably standing next to just a moment ago...

Not if we include the 'llegro' in the logo itself. The 'l's for sticks in his hand, the 'e' for a mouth, the 'r' for an ear and the 'o' for an eye and the 'g' for a...for a penis!

Matt Smith

I read right to left as left to right :) It's a dyslexia thing.

Rampage

Mascots are overrated. I would like to see what the community comes up with, though.

Michael Jensen

My bad about my earlier post -- I couldn't tell that the argument was over -- A lot of times several things will happen at once in a thread constructive and destructive and I misinterpreted things.

Quote:

Why the argument? What I got from that decision was that we can go ahead and do this, just don't expect the mascot to be in the manual.

Actually, the decision, as I read it said we could have it in the manual, just not THE manual that makedoc makes. -- We could have it in the allegro.cc manual, or any other manual that we wanted to put it in, etc -- it just would have to be done seperate from the automatic build process.

Dennis

Hm, if they are no additional suggestions until tomorrow, then maybe we should go on to the next phase?

Originally, the plan was to vote on the suggestions(in text form) first and then make sketches for the three most popular suggestions, then vote from those remaining three ones again and then create finalized artwork. However, some people said that they lack imagination skills to vote on anything without seeing any sketches at all, so should we go on to make sketches already and skip the first voting?

(not sure if "sketch" is a correct english word; I think "doodle" is a word with the same meaning)

Thomas Harte

Well, I've just added my idea to the suggestion page in preparation for the vote. If anybody has the correct tools for trimming my sumitted SVGs, which are currently surrounded by large empty borders, then I invite their help.

Jonny Cook

I thought we already decided on Allefro? ???

Mark Oates

My perspective on this topic can be summed up in this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itchy_&_Scratchy#Poochie

and this ironic adaptation:

http://www.allegro.cc/files/attachment/592718

Albin Engström

I must say that I really like AL, my vote belongs to him(her?).
Although I think an upgrade of the drawing should be considered...

I don't like the idea of an mascot with a personality, such as an animal, a black A running is perfect, it also looks nice. And i think a mascot for allegro would be a great idea as it would be easier for allegro to get recognized that way. As i never read the text of the logos of companies i do remember their movies or designs, and i think most people work that way.

Rampage

Mark Oates wins! ;D

Michael Jensen

After going to the wiki page, my favorite is leggy. Are we voting yet? ;D

Dennis

No, we're not voting yet. I for one won't have time to make any doodles for the remaining suggestions in the next few days but I guess that's ok as we're not in a hurry.
As soon as there are doodles for all suggestions, I will ask Matthew to make a new poll on the frontpage for voting. Don't know if that's complicated to do so if he doesn't have time or will to do it, we need to find someone else to set up a simple voting system somewhere.

TeamTerradactyl

I really shouldn't comment in this thread, but this has gone on too long.

The other thread had the right idea; you simply start posting pictures as fast as you can, and then everyone take a look at something that progresses into a very good-looking logo or mascot. Then you all decide. If Alex hadn't already been used for someone's game/site/etc., I feel it would have won because of how much excitement and feedback it received.

If government has taught me anything, it's that you don't have a committee plan things out like this. The other thread got A LOT more activity, ideas, etc. I think it was because it was so VISUAL, where this is all too logical and sequential.

I say we start a brand-new thread where we do nothing but post ideas for the mascot (or just continue the old thread), but without worrying that it infringes on someone's prior work..?

Jonny Cook
Quote:

I really shouldn't comment in this thread, but this has gone on too long.

I agree with. I think using Allefro is the best option we have seen yet. That is what you're saying... right?

TeamTerradactyl

That MUST be it. Allefro all the way, baby.::)

Onewing

How 'bout we just buy the rights to Alex? I'll chip in $10.00 for that...

Elias

Actually, my understanding is now, the picture itself already is public domain (Johan gave it to Allegro) - just the name "Alex the Allegator" is his. So might be enough coming up with a new name, like "Axel the Alligator".. just somewhat more different than that.. :)

Jonny Cook

Well, I do recall reading somewhere that he wanted to keep the rights to Alex the Allegator for himself, as he had further plans for him in the future.

Paul Pridham

How about a cheese grater? He would be "Alex the Allegrater". He would be shown grating cheese into code.

Although, most people on Allegro.cc turn code into cheese. ;)

Jonny Cook

That's a brilliant idea. (I'll leave it up to you to determine whether or not I'm being sarcastic.:P)

Kibiz0r

I vote for Allefro!

Jeff Bernard
Quote:

So might be enough coming up with a new name

Alex the Crocodile?

le_y_mistar

i'd like to nominate myself to be the official PR representative of allegro

TeamTerradactyl
Jeff Bernard said:

Alex the Crocodile?

Cody the Crocodile (code-E the Crocodile)?

Dennis
Quote:

If government has taught me anything, it's that you don't have a committee plan things out like this. The other thread got A LOT more activity, ideas, etc. I think it was because it was so VISUAL, where this is all too logical and sequential.

Sure, the process is slow and it will take a few months to get a result. The logical and sequential setup is meant to produce a result that is a) widely accepted(as in the community casts it by voting and thus can identify with) and b) of high quality(doodles first, polished artwork later).

Quote:

So might be enough coming up with a new name, like "Axel the Alligator".. just somewhat more different than that.. :)

I strongly object that as it would be impolite and it feels like stealing someones intellectual property and claiming that it is our own.

Richard Phipps

I think we should leave this thread to die.

Onewing
Quote:

I think we should leave this thread to die.

Just because we can't agree doesn't mean we should give up. Once again, I vote for buying Alex.

GameCreator
Quote:

Just because we can't agree doesn't mean we should give up.

I'm with Onewing. Why strive for accomplishing something when you can debate endlessly?

Paul whoknows

I propose piccolo as the official allegro mascot!

Elias

Who/What is piccolo?

Rampage
Quote:

I propose piccolo as the official allegro mascot!

Now I'm torn between Mark Oates's mascot and piccolo...

[edit]

How can someone not know who piccolo is!

Elias
Quote:

How can someone not know who piccolo is!

Ah, well, I only read the dev forum.. (maybe this thread should be moved to offtopic though.. :P)

Slartibartfast

Make piccolo the official forum mascot and make the allegro mascot something else.

Onewing

I'm all for goofing off, being sarcastic and making odd comments that only I laugh at, but let's please try to keep this thread from heading into the need-to-be-locked thread and stay on topic.

I really want to rally for Alex. I know, I know, I've said it several times and there are many reservations to consider, but seriously, the majority felt agreeable with him as the mascot/logo and with this community, a majority in anything is remarkable and rare. We should first try and look at any way possible of using Alex without having to change any kind of item within the license. If all routes are exhausted, then we should go with plan B. It seems illogical to me to be attempting this "let's choose something else route" when maybe there's still a path to having Alex.

Thus, we need to bring Johan here. It's his and if there's anything we can do to obtain the rights to Alex, he would let us know. If he wants a sum of money (even if it is really high), then that is an option. If he wants something else, then that could be an option. We've got some sexy women if it comes to that...

Anywho, I think Alex being the official mascot/logo could only be a good thing for FLD (Free Lunch Design). Ultimately, if we have the rights, Alex will still have ties with FLD and any publicity is good for him. Someone who sees the unfamiliar logo might try to look up allegro or the alligator, which will ultimately lead to allegro and FLD. Surely that's a good thing.

I vote for Alex! Join me brothers!

Evert
Quote:

maybe this thread should be moved to offtopic though..

Unless it gets a bit more on topic (as with the last post), yes, I think it should be. Before my mail client starts marking all my A.CC e-mail as spam. ;)

Thomas Harte
Quote:

but seriously, the majority felt agreeable with [Alex] as the mascot/logo

Show us the evidence.

I definitely agree that it's time to either move this on to a vote or drop it.

Elias
Quote:

I definitely agree that it's time to either move this on to a vote or drop it.

Yeah, seems the mascot initiative was struck by whatever it blamed the "allegro devs" with :P

Matthew Leverton

Closing the thread because 1) most people aren't serious, 2) it doesn't concern Allegro development, and 3) I would never hold any sort of public vote on a.cc for a mascot as its totally against my anti-democracy ideals. :P

As a tip, here's how Allegro related stuff works:

  1. ask a general question to make sure your idea won't be shot down.

  2. Do it!

Throwing 200 opinions into the mix is just a recipe for disaster.

So it would go like this:

  • Ask the question: "Would anyone be opposed to a mascot."

  • Developers give a clear outline of where it would and wouldn't be used.

  • Create one. A final version. A complete working copy.

  • Submit it to the developers.

  • They accept or reject it.

See how easy that is?

If we held these sorts of committee discussions where everyone who has never given a real thought about Allegro before got to give input, we'd still be using Allegro 0.1.

Thread #592305. Printed from Allegro.cc