Since the great success of the other thread i decided to open a new one, specifically for playing chess.

I hope we will manage to do a team play this time.
The game will start when enough people join; just post the team you're on and i'll edit.

Every member of the team must post, no member can move twice in a row (there can be exceptions if both team members agree)

So,

White Team:
-Evert
-Dennis Busch
-X-G

Black Team:
-FMC
-superstar4410
-Kirr

Note:there is no team size limit.

I'll be white then, but I can't guarentee I'll post often...
Actually, I should be going and play some real-life chess now.

How about someone take RP's chat code and turn it into a networked chess program? Should be simple enough to handle and then you won't have to play ASCII chess over A.cc.

Add me to the team black

Who talked of ASCII code?
This is the board on which you play:

r n b q k b n r
p p p p p p p p
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
P P P P P P P P
R N B Q K B N R

, that using my script (see sig) becomes this:
{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/9\/79a688c228e40c78e836d3892b50ad2d.gif","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/9\/79a688c228e40c78e836d3892b50ad2d"}

The idea is to play on a forum in order to make epic games that last months!(ookay, i'm exaggerating here)
A chat program is too fast for this type of thing

Added Evert and superstar4410.

http://www.chess.net
get the java version.
if they still have it.:-*

I join white.

I'll join black to balance Evert.

Yeah, this is very good addition. So if you are starting some risky attack make sure your teammates can understand your plan.

A recommendation for your script: Wouldn't it be easier to record all the chess movements and work from there? It would make much tidier input for the script; you could send it movements in, say, algebraic notation instead of the entire board state.

Yes Kirr, turn to the dark side.

X-G: but there is the risk that someone might play with the script and give it input while we play, thus changing the board. I could change notation to something like show?board=X&move=MOVE, so that the move changed only board X, but i think it would be more confusing.

On the other hand i could just link with show?board=X (where X would remain a constant for all of our game)but this way there would be no way to see the old moves.

Would do you people say?

I was thinking more like the board taking the entire game in algebraic form. You'd pass the entire game to the script and it'd work out the moves. So you'd do, for instance: board.php?e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc5 a6 or similar. The next player would simply tack his move onto the existing list.

In fact, since I'm bored, I started working on just such a script.

I agree on the risks and problems you pointed out.
The script is good and sufficient as it is.:)
You could add some quickstart manual under the scripts interface page,
showing the standard ASCII board with a legend (r=black rook, n=black knight, Q=white queen, etc...).

Starting the game... (more players can still join!)
--

r n b q k b n r
p p p p p p p p
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . P . . .
. . . . . . . .
P P P P . P P P
R N B Q K B N R

--
(black to move)
{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/b\/cbbe614acafa8d7d8c14c4cd93352164.gif","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/b\/cbbe614acafa8d7d8c14c4cd93352164"}

I will not move first
Kirr, Superstar4410 feel free to move.

Done

Why don't you join the game?

Because it's been years since I played chess regularly.

At any rate, I've made a chess widget of my own! It's at http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php and takes information in algebraic notation, each step separated by a comma. It should support most constructs (including disambuating captures and castling), but note that marking checks with + doesn't work.

The current game with my script looks like this:

http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php?e4
(http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php?e4)

A future move might be, for instance, img http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php?e4,e5 or something similar.

A longer example just to get a feel for it:

http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php?e4,e5,Nf3,f6,Nxe5,fxe5,Qh5
(http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php?e4,e5,Nf3,f6,Nxe5,fxe5,Qh5)

Don't make games too long then, as the query string has a maximum length, usually 255 bytes.

--- Moved the Knight----

--
r n b q k b . r
p p p p p p p p
. . . . . n . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . P . . .
. . . . . . . .
P P P P . P P P
R N B Q K B N R
--

(white to move)

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/e\/7e8adc861691c8ec7fb4eb2b05bbc800.gif","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/e\/7e8adc861691c8ec7fb4eb2b05bbc800"}
superstar4410, if you want to create a diagram of the board you can paste the matrix you made into this script(that you can also find in my sig)

And if i said i've played more than 30 games in my whole life i'd be telling a lie (that's why i put all my faith in Kirr and superstar4410)

Thanks for the info, I'll remember that next time

2... e5

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(black to move)

By the way, I hate Aljechin's Defence.

uhm...
{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/b\/2b36f516f4572727ee5cb829980b9ef1.gif","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/b\/2b36f516f4572727ee5cb829980b9ef1"}

3..Nd5
(White to move.)

r n b q k b . r
p p p p p p p p
. . . . . . . .
. . . n P . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
P P P P . P P P
R N B Q K B N R

I sporadically join the white team (and insist to use my own script!).

3. Bc4

http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php?e4,Nf6,e5,Nd5,Bc4
http://monkeyblah.com/chess.php?e4,Nf6,e5,Nd5,Bc4

Oh yeah, one more thing. Because of His Messianitic Cloister, I can't make more than five moves. Sucks to be me, eh?

Most servers have the maximum GET set to about 2k. So the issue will probably be at the browser.
IE locks it at 256 I think. None of us should be using IE anyway, so that won't be a problem.
Firefox can take something much longer I believe.

Or ML's script might lock it down, shrugs.

If it becomes a problem I suggest adding a bit of MySQL database to the mix. Add a script for adding a "game", which accepts the series of moves, assigns an unique id, adds it to the database, and then returns the id. Then modify the original script to accept an id as opposed to a serious of moves (or both).
Or use one of those url shrinkers. trimurl or whatever it was.

Is it allowed to openly criticize moves?

Yes, do so

The black king and queen should swap places.

[edit]move critics removed for tactical reasons[/edit]

No they should not.

Wasn't there a rule to say that the king's are supposed to start on their colours?

Queens start on their colors.

3...Nb6

r n b q k b . r
p p p p p p p p
. n . . . . . .
. . . . P . . .
. . B . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
P P P P . P P P
R N B Q K . N R *

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/b\/9b2863b3d4de5e9ca4fffb6012445697.gif","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/b\/9b2863b3d4de5e9ca4fffb6012445697"}
(white to move)

XG, can you support short algebraic notation in your script, like "1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.Bc4 Nb6" ? Move numbers are very useful for avoiding confusion.

FMC, perhaps you can parse that asterisk in your script and generate "white to move" as a part of the picture. How is it?

Oh, great...
Well, at least it's not Aljechin anymore

4. Bb3

r n b q k b . r *
p p p p p p p p
. n . . . . . .
. . . . P . . .
. . . . . . . .
. B . . . . . .
P P P P . P P P
R N B Q K . N R

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/7\/b7cb2ea9996ea77ced1b677fae64f670.gif","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/7\/b7cb2ea9996ea77ced1b677fae64f670"}
(black to move)

Done, just remember to put the asterisk to the right of the board.

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/0\/e0eb8b942daeda16ecac623d91e3c496.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/0\/e0eb8b942daeda16ecac623d91e3c496"}
(if you find the font irritating, just say so )

r n b q k b . r *
p p p p p p p p
. n . . . . . .
. . . . P . . .
. . . . . . . .
. B . . . . . .
P P P P . P P P
R N B Q K . N R

I have the feeling this will be a looong game...

Yeah, good, thanks! (but I prefer more calm font).

Why you did not move? I think black should be fine with c5 or d5 here... (I can't move twice in row, so just discussing - it's a team chess, right?)

[edit] Or, may be superstar4410 should move, it was his idea to go Alekhine, so perhaps he knows what to do.

This looks to become the longest played chess game in history. Someone call Guinness!

I'll break it that record by starting a chess game with my cousin. We'll each move one piece now and the rest of them when we're 45.

I did not know they had names for certain moves...(weird, why give a personal name to a move in a game with such simple rules and think that no one else would have ever thought of that move)...here's some reading:
Alekhine's Defence

Yes, i was waiting superstar, but since he doesn't post and probably i wont be able for all the next week (not that i'll loose that many moves ), i'll give it a shot:

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/3\/33bf59f583fff24d22a64baa3ffc3539.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/3\/33bf59f583fff24d22a64baa3ffc3539"}

r n b q k b . r
p p p . p p p p
. n . . . . . .
. . . p P . . .
. . . . . . . .
. B . . . . . .
P P P P . P P P
R N B Q K . N R*

5.d5

[edit]Also changed to font to something more... classic.

You don't give names to moves, you give names to openings. Usually the name of a player who made an extensive study of it (Aliekhin, Staunton) or the name of a place or country where the opening was (apparently) played often (Leningrader Variation). Or to indicate what you think of the opening (Orang-Utan, Fried Liver Variation).

That's 4... d5 (the fourth move by black).

r n b q k b . r*
p p p . p p p p
. n . . . . . .
. . . p P . . .
. . . P . . . .
. B . . . . . .
P P P . . P P P
R N B Q K . N R

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/5\/f5fb7bfbd19f35fe4ac2fd49c14aae41.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/5\/f5fb7bfbd19f35fe4ac2fd49c14aae41"}

4. d4

That's 5.d4 I also thought we have this rule to ensure team gameplay:

Classic? But it is now better than before, thanks!

5...Bf5

r n . q k b . r
p p p . p p p p
. n . . . . . .
. . . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. B . . . . . .
P P P . . P P P
R N B Q K . N R *

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/9\/b9551ba02729b427a2c4ec4d8cc8884a.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/9\/b9551ba02729b427a2c4ec4d8cc8884a"}

6.Pa4

r n . q k b . r*
p p p . p p p p
. n . . . . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. B . . . . . .
. P P . . P P P
R N B Q K . N R

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/9\/49404050879dd40ede5297e96eed6bae.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/9\/49404050879dd40ede5297e96eed6bae"}

A word of advice to my team mates: develop your pieces before you advance your pawns - especially if they're wing pawns.

Shouldn't you decide together as a team before you make a move? I don't see a lot of strategy in the game yet...

I would say that white equalized.

amarillion, no, that's the whole point. Otherwise we will get too serious. (It will also slow down the game a lot)

My last move for quite some time (my team members are not allowed to cheer ):

6.Cc6
{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/b\/bb0e57fb9061636fe8b081adb1676f3b.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/b\/bb0e57fb9061636fe8b081adb1676f3b"}

r . . q k b . r
p p p . p p p p
. n n . . . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. B . . . . . .
. P P . . P P P
R N B Q K . N R*

Yes, I think so - more or less. The Bishop on b3 is a bit weak but the pawn centre is solid. I don't like that black has been able to develop more light pieces though, but we'll see.
It's for fun anyway.

White team, don't give up so soon! You can still hope to draw!

I thought I'd give someone else a chance...

Anyway, 7. Nf3

r . . q k b . r*
p p p . p p p p
. n n . . . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. B . . . N . .
. P P . . P P P
R N B Q K . . R

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/c\/3c0aa49bb0196b0022172e68416de63c.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/c\/3c0aa49bb0196b0022172e68416de63c"}

I could not move because of the "no 2 moves in a row" rule...

White's pawn center can be attacked with f7-f6 and c7-c5, it's still early to say if it's solid or not...

7...Na5

r . . q k b . r
p p p . p p p p
. n . . . . . .
n . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. B . . . N . .
. P P . . P P P
R N B Q K . . R *

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/1\/01609e4cebb470497486869ce734879c.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/1\/01609e4cebb470497486869ce734879c"}

suggestions what do you think teammates:
N b1-d2
or
Nc3
or Nh4

Nbd1

Here's why: Nc3 Nxb3, and recapturinc cxb3 weakens the pawnstructure. At some point, we may want to play c2-c3 to strengthen the d4 pawn if it comes under attack.
Nh4... well, it's just a bad idea to start attacking while not all your pieces are developed.

I'd also take a moment to consider possible ways to save the white bishop, but if it can't be helped, it can't be helped. Ba2 is probably a bad idea (but not nescessarily because of Nxa4).

EDIT

Yes. What I meant was, it's optically solid and if black doesn't do something about it, it might give white an advantage. But I think black clearly has the better position.

I hope you mean Nbd2. Ok, i move that.
8.Nbd2

r . . q k b . r*
p p p . p p p p
. n . . . . . .
n . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. B . . . N . .
. P P N . P P P
R . B Q K . . R

{"name":"show.php","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/0\/70295debac367b4bed0bef21ce8f7fd7.gif","w":400,"h":430,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/0\/70295debac367b4bed0bef21ce8f7fd7"}

I can't move now, but I will share my thoughts with my teammates anyway: I think Black is better to play e7-e6 now. It activates a bishop, increasing pressure on white, and there's no urgent need to take on b3, the bishop can't escape anyway. After white's Nf3, I did not want e6 because of possible Bc1-g5, but now the Bishop on c1 is blocked by a Knight on d2, so now we are again free to play e7-e6. Also by e7-e6 we will prevent possibility of Nf3-h4. Also e7-e6 prepares for possible assault c7-c5.

Hmm.. We need reinforcements. FMC is away and superstar did not appear recently too...

e7-e6 also helps to defend the pawn on d5, which also in effect "frees" up the knight on b6 to a certain degree...

Not that the pawn on d5 needs excessive defending right now... it just helps to generate a good "pawn skeleton" if you will...

If e7-e6 is played, I think White's move should be either a quick c2-c3 with the idea Bc2/Nb3, or 0-0, which may be more difficult to do after c2-c3 Bf5-d3.

A daring soul may wish to look at c2-c4, though I'm pretty sure that that is trying too much.

r . . q k b . r
p p p . . p p p
. n . . p . . .
n . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. B . . . N . .
. P P N . P P P
R . B Q K . . R*

Good work Kirr, you holded the base pretty well.

I'm back, but only for tonight; someone else shoud join black.
My idea would be to prepare to castle with h8
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White team?

Bug your teammates.

Sometimes it is good idea to delay castling for a couple of moves to not give the opponent a clear target for attack. He can't prepare attack if he does not know where our king will go.

Black seems to have some logical line: Be7, Qd7, Rc8, c5 (not necessarily in this order). Of course, depends on what white team does. For example, if they move c2-c3, I think we better grab the bishop b3 - it's their only useful bishop at the moment. (otherwise it will escape to c2 and we'll have to exchange our powerful Bf5)

Is it a sacrifice or I don't see something?

I don't think you miss sth. As i see it, if every subsequent move from both sides would be a slaughter, then it would end up with a black knight sitting on c4.(Casualties: white a bishop a pawn and a knight, black a pawn and a knight.) So i would not move that.

No, it's just a bad move.
Anyway, it's too late for me right now to think of something to play. Maybe tomorrow if white's still to move. I think c2-c3 is the best move, because the knight on d2 is blocking both the bishop on c1 and the queen. Nh4 is probably something to look at in a few moves (to attack the strong bishop).

White team, where art thou?

Well.. It seems the "no move twice in row" rule does not work too well - we have too few people... So how about relaxing it, so that we can finish the game? What people think?

Alternatively, white team can go out to recruit more members.. May be if there are 5-6 people in a team it can work out better..

FMC and I already started a PM game, while we are waiting for the white team's move...

Sorry, i'm currently heavily distracted by other things.:-/

Ok, for what concerns me the "no move twice in row" rule can be considered void

Ok, i move. c2-c3

r . . q k b . r*
p p p . . p p p
. n . . p . . .
n . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. B P . . N . .
. P . N . P P P
R . B Q K . . R

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Good.. I was already thinking if I should switch over to the white team..

9... Nxb3

r . . q k b . r
p p p . . p p p
. n . . p . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. n P . . N . .
. P . N . P P P
R . B Q K . . R *

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I would move 10.Nd2xb3 now. Or maybe 10.Qd1xb3.

Either it's too difficult choice, or everyone is on vacation...

Seems that the "team" concept is not working very well.

(It is my third move in a row.)

r . . q k b . r *
p p p . . p p p
. n . . p . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . . P P P
R . B Q K . . R

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I was on vacation.
Let's see... black has the bishop pair, we have a weak bishop and a glaring hole on c4. I'd say we're in trouble people
(Not saying I'd have moved differently).
Plan (in no particular order, that will need some thought!): castle, bring out the bishop to e3, get the b3 knight out of the way in order to be able to chase away a possible Nc4 with b3, play Nh4 to get black to exchange his white-field bishop.

h4 is guarded by black queen, i fail to see how that would force an exchange of the white-field-bishop.

Yes, it's not something we can play right now. That's why it's a plan we want to do sometime.
But it's something we will want to do to get black to exchange his bishop. It doesn't have that many places to go and we'd like to get rid of it because our own defence of the white squares is rather poor. And no, don't even think about g3/Nh4; g3 will only further weaken the white squares.

OK, they recaptured with Knight, as I was afraid of... But as Evert said we have two bishops and a big advantage on white squares that may pay off in later part of the game. I don't see a good attacking plan yet, but black has quite comfortable position. I think we can do one of three things now:

Bf8-e7 - Activates a bishop; prepares for castle; protects against Bc1-g5; releases our queen from guarding h4 (so it can move to d7).

Nb6-c4 - Attacks pawn b2 binding bishop c1 to defend it; attacks a5, making white less comfortable with a4-a5; empties b6 for possible b7-b6. Moves knight to more active position generally, but does not make any particular threats yet. The only problem with this move is that white will probably try to exchange by Nb3-d2. I'm not sure we want that exchange...

h7-h6 - Prevents Bc1-g5 or Nf3-g5 forever, making remaining white bishop useless until we exchange some pawns; Prepares the h7 for our bishop, destroying white's dream to exchange our Bishop at f5 until we want that exchange. Also gives our king a way to excape for some occasions in the endgame.

What do you think, team?

[EDIT]
OK, my team does not show up... So I will continue with our original plan.

Bf8-e7.

r . . q k . . r
p p p . b p p p
. n . . p . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . . P P P
R . B Q K . . R *

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various plans:
b3-a5 to cover c4 and threaten b7 and afterwards d8
or
c1-f4 to further support e5 and to cover g5 and later put queen to d2
or
castle now to further support e5

The threat on b7 isn't too convincing, and our knight is in general badly placed on a5.
Bf4 looks ok (but Qd2 is a bad idea for now because of Nc4), but doesn't seem to actually do much. Plus, if black can play g5 (and it isn't clear to me that he can't, though it's generally a bad move) then it is somewhat embarassing. I think Be3 is a reasonable alternative.
O-O seems to be the best alternative to me, but we need a plan. We don't really want to wait for black to attack, but we don't have any obvious strategy as black has no real weaknesses. Maybe a slight spatial disadvantage but his white-field bishop more than makes up for this.

I think my plan would involve the ideas O-O/Be3/Nc1 followed by either Nd3 or Nc1-e2-f4/g3 possibly with b3 thrown in somewhere. This will take quite a bit of time though and black won't be idle. He can play Nc4 and break open the centre with d5...
Yes, I think I would look at something like O-O/Bd3/Nc1/b3/Qe2. Thoughts?

A different approach could be...
O-O/Ph3/Pg4/
if black moves Nc4 we can completely ignore it(at first), cause it will not threaten anything except b2, so i think it would also not be good to do Be3, because there blacks Nc4 would be a problem.
If along the way black moves Be4 instead of Nc4 it could be answered by Nb3-d2 and then a move later the queen could go supporting the right field and maybe prepare an attack to blacks pawns if Nc4 was still played...
(I think black will be unable to start attacking too soon with this plan, because we can elegantly evade any provocations without doing damage and if Bg5 was played then that bishop is dead and our black bishop will stay alive, because i don't think they will sacrifice their queen.)

I think it's difficult to make the right decision now, but i also think it is a very important decision, because it might already determine who will win(if it is not obvious already but i still think white is not completely lost).

I agree that O-O seems to be the best move though to start any plan but we'll have to see how black reacts then(of course).

Whatever we do, don't advance pawns that bave no reason to move (ie, the kingside pawns), it'll just create more holes and weaknesses.
I don't think x. Be3 Nc4 is much of a problem because of x+1. Qe2.

Ok, let's Kg1 then and see how black answers.

Ok, this is move 12 if I've counted correctly.

12. O-O

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r . . q k . . r *
p p p . b p p p
. n . . p . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . . P P P
R . B Q . R K .

It looks like move 11 - I looked at the previous page and counted...

Actually I am impressed by the white team brainstorm. Overall the game is much more serious than the previous one.

What is this panic? Position is about equal, neither side seem to have any particular advantage or attacking ideas, and the game is still closed (no verticals free of pawns). It means nothing is really decided yet, although white has some weak pawns, but they already castled and now can play more actively on the queen's side.

OK, I think we have two possible ideas now. 1. 0-0, Qd7, Nc4, Rfc8, Rab8, c5 - we open file c and try to play against white weak pawns - a4, b2 and e5 if white takes on c5, or d4 if we take on d4. Honestly, I think white can defend everything, at least if they continue to do such serious work like on the last move. In the worst case they will exchange some pieces and it will become hard to press.

Second idea is: Qd7, 0-0-0, Rdg8, g5, h5 and so on, it means trying to develop attack on white king. White's disorganized queen side gives us hope that they won't be able to develop their own attack so quickly. May be they can open the c vertical, but hopefully not a or b. On the other hand, if we succeed to open either g or h vertical, the white king will be in trouble. It's risky plan, because seriously I think white can defend with accurate play. And if they defend, their position might be better in the end..

Alternative moves for now:
11... Qd7 - most active move, while leaves us free to choose queen-side or king-side for attack. If white replies Nc5 we move Qc6 with idea Nb6-c4 and b7-b6. If white replies 12.Bg5, then we exchange black-square bishops and grab pawn a4.
11... Nc4 - still doesn't threaten anything, but becomes easy target for exchange.
11... Rc8 - waste of time, cause depending on our strategy we will want to put it either on b8 or g8.
11... h6 - too passive - gives white time to organize their position. But if we are afraid of Bc1-g5 it is a fine move as well.
11... Nd7 - actually an interesting move. Prepares for c7-c5, to make some use of our knight. Also clears b6 for b7-b6, and attacks e5, which will be good if white will take d4xc5.

So, what my team is thinking? I think our main choices for now are Qd7, Nd7, or h6. All of them does not make final decision of our plan yet, so we can see what white does and decide later.

Actually it's probably a mistake to discuss our plan so openly.. 0-0-0 and Rg8 should come as a surprise.. So this game is totally open source now..

[EDIT]
The team is not around, and it's time to move something.. From now I will play without discussion, until my team-mates come or someone else joins black team. BTW, anyone is still welcome!

11... Nb6-d7

r . . q k . . r
p p p n b p p p
. . . . p . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . . P P P
R . B Q . R K . *

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I'm back up

Qe2 looks good(imo):
If black goes Pc5, we can ignore it. Sure black can pick our pawn(Pxd4) a move later but we can easily repick that by Nf3xd4, which will put pressure on blacks white bishop.

If black won't move that bishop, we could(should imo) sacrifice a knight to pick it, then our queen can safely march on to g4 or to b5, if it turns out that we'll have to attack on the other side.
(But moving the queen to the front should not be done before we don't have and attack plan...so i once again vote to wait for blacks reaction after every move. I don't think that it is possible to plan much in advance in chess, because every single move can entirely turn around the whole situation.)

Welcome back, FMC!

I totally fail to see how a knight sacrifice will get you that bishop, but hey, you just try it!

It's nothing we could do right now. It was a follow up thought to all those 'if this and then and then repick...' thinking before.

Is it too late to join in? If it isnt I vote for Qe2.

It's never too late to join. Just make sure that you stick with one side until the end of the game.;)
I also vote for Qe2.

So?

I'm not exactly a chess player, but if white plays Nh4, black can either:

- ignore it, resulting in a knight-bishop trade
- Be4, which could be followed by white f3, after which the bishop is lost regardless of what black does.

So, Nh4 effectively kills the bishop, just IMHO. But please remember that I know precious little about chess...

Or take it with Bxh4.

Now, black is preparing for c5. If he does play that, we don't want to respond with dxc4 because it leaves the e5 pawn in a very poor position. Besides, we'd probably (but I didn't look very closely) have black play cxd4 followed by cxd4 on our end, opening up the c-file.

The question now becomes, what is the appropriate move for white in this position? My first thought is Be3 (to shore up the defence of pawn d4), but I haven't looked at it in too much detail. Main disadvantage: that bishop isn't doing much of anything down there...

OK, I'm from now on officially recognised as a blind person . Somebody please hand me my white cane?

I still think Qe2 is more appropriate, because from there the queen can be brought out to b on the next move, if that should become necessary.

Be3 is something we can still do a move later, if black plays Pc5. But if we don't play Qe2 now, we might lose a chance to prepare an attack on the right side.

Which we would respond with Nf3xd4, putting blacks white bishop under pressure.

Be3 is a bad position for a bishop. It locks up pieces behind it from getting out aswell as wastes the bishop. A better position for bishops is 3, 4, or 5 on the left or right side. The middle is just a bad idea.

Qe2 feels supieror to me.

So.. how do we make a move now?

Well, if we all agree that we want Qe2(I'm not sure if it is fine with Evert.), you copy the previous board, paste it back in using the <pre> tag,modify it, and also go to the chess link in FMC's signature, paste the modified board there, copy the image link you'll get and then unter the the ascii board use that link with the [img] tag.
Don't forget to put the asterisk(*) to the side, whose move it is, before you paste it to FMC's script.

Oh, I see now, then that's exchange, not sacrifice. I was trying to figure some sacrifice lines.

White team, you need this man!

Yeah! I always wandered what happens when a team does not come to the conclusion. Throw dice?

Take a vote?

And thus the battle ends?

Alright, since I'm voting for Qe2 and nobody else is voting i guess Qe2 wins.

r . . q k . . r *
p p p n b p p p
. . . . p . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K .

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c6

r . . q k . . r
p p . n b p p p
. . p . p . . .
. . . p P b . .
P . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K .*

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b c1-f5

r . . q k . . r
p p . n b p p p
. . p . p . . .
. . . p P b B .
P . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K .*

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I resign.

Didn't like my move?

This thread is STILL alive? Heh, its almost 2 months old

Dustin, did you see that after 13... Bxg5 14. Nxg5 Qxg5 black is left with extra bishop? If FMC agrees I think white should take that back.. That's where teamplay helps - to prevent a major blunder like this.

Evert, I think Qe2 was a good move for white on previous move, because it effectively prevents our c7-c5. If we moved c7-c5 we would lose a pawn after exchange and Qe2-b5+. So I thought Dustin prepared a clever trap. And now this...

No.
I just wanted to suggest...
Alarming Situation:
Pa4-a5
If we don't do that, black could move his queen to b6 and on the next move our knight would be down.
...
but then i went online and saw that we could not move anymore.
Did you not notice that we were(at least the last couple of moves) discussing our moves, before acting?

I agree, they can change their move.

No, I didn't. But I also don't have enough time to keep up the game.

Don't advance pawns unless you have no other choice is my advice. It was a mistake to push it to a4 and pushing it further forward only weakens it more. Doesn't mean Qb6 isn't a good move for black, just that it would be better to find something else than a5 to work against it.

The only other way i can see would be to let Qb6 happen and then take a retreat with the knight, which would place it into a useless position, imo.
I think Pa5 is the best way to work against it, because it effectively locks the black queen from coming out.
If black answers with Pb6, we can again advance our pawn to a6, which will in turn lock up the black queen behind its' own pawns.

Aw crap I really messed this up.. Sorry.. I'll suggest moves from now on instead of just doing them

Should i... move for white?

Since everyones being so inactive...

Pa5

r . . q k . . r
p p . n b p p p
. . p . p . . .
p . . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K .*

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(Hopefully I didn't mess things up this time...)

Good, I more and more like white panws... OK, I think about either moving h7-h6 or b7-b6 now. h7-h6 is solid move which develops our plan - after that we will be able to move queen to c7 without being afraid of Bc1-g5. b7-b6 is probably opening the game so it's takes more responsibility. I should think more if it's advantageous for black. Team-mates?

I hope so too, but i think it was the best move for the moment. We must take extra care though, what we'll do next, because we can still shoot ourselves a leg off.

Let's continue to discuss our moves openly(i already answered your pm;)), so this can be a learning experience for everyone to enjoy.

And black team should have one "take back" free now.
Thanks to black team for letting us reconsider.:)

Ah I didn't see that Kd7xb6 move. Owell, its still a good defensive move.

Are you kidding?

I agree with h7-h6 but i'd also consider castling.

I know. But once we had Superstar too, who sent us into this Alekhine adventure..

Yeah, I think I also like h6 better. Now we can wait for white to shoot their leg off..

13.. h7-h6

r . . q k . . r
p p . n b p p .
. . p . p . . p
P . . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K . *

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For the castling. We sure will do it very soon, but right now we still have useful move to make, and the position is still closed. So it's good to still keep the choice and not let the white relax. They don't know where to expect our attack, isn't it beautiful?

I think we could try to open now, by P c4.
Or we could place some heavy weaponry(R a4) to the right wing. (Blacks b7-b5 could be x'ed by using "en passent".)

How about h3? Provides an escape route for king while restricting the bishops movement.

Also I think c4s a bad move as putting our queen out in the open is a bad risk to take.

I do not think we need an escape route for the king there and it would not restrict the blacks white bishop move options any more than it is already.
If you are concerned with the threat that bishop could pose to our knight:
It is unreal, because on e4 or g4 we would ignore it, probably letting it pick our knight and a move later we would pick the bishop with the queen, so there is no gain for black to do so.
(And Evert previously said we should not advance pawns without good reason and as i see it(description above) there is no reason to do so in this case.)

But you're right with the queen, so i vote for Rook to a4 and then maybe we can open a move later with pawn c4.

Hm, advancing the pawn after the bishop moves is a good point. i also vote for Ra4

Since Evert officially resigned, we're the only (active) white players left.
So be it.

r . . q k . . r *
p p . n b p p .
. . p . p . . p
P . . p P b . .
R . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
. . B . . R K . 

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I think we may safely continue our plan with Qd8-c7. White rook does not make any threats, but will be easy target if vertical b or c will open. If white moves c3-c4 we can attack the rook with b7-b5, and after cxb5 cxb5 we will have an extra tempo. White can't capture pawn b5 with queen because after Rb8 they will lose a knight b3.

Another possibility is to chase away the rook with b7-b5 right now. If white captures by a5xb6 we will recapture with queen attacking the knight and with active position. FMC?

I think he resigned the game, not his participation. (He did not like to play without a bishop). Now that move is replayed, so I think he's still in, just he is probably busy. He gave some good advices before, and I think you may need his help again. (Although as a black team member I should be happy when he's not here ).

For my style of play i'd go with b7-b5, they could do a5xb6 but then we would recapture and threat the rook with queen or (better imo)knight

b7-b5

r . . q k . . r
p . . n b p p .
. . p . p . . p
P p . p P b . .
R . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
. . B . . R K .*

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We could do a5xb6. They will probably, as they say, recapture with queen, threatening our knight.
We could protect our knight then with our other knight f3-d2.

If they should get the idea of threatening our rook with their queen(queen would be on b5 then) we should make a queens exchange, or else they would get our queen without loosing theirs on the following move.
Either way those tactics would(imo) lead to a situation where the only thing we could do would be to choose which(rook or queen) we would have to sacrifice...

...

But now that the good thing(blacks queen locked(for now) behind its' own pawns) has happened by using the rook as bait, i think we should put the rook back to a1.
So i vote for Ra1.

I vote for xb6. If the queen recaptures we can force a retreat of the queen while having an extremely developed rook or force a queen trade which results in an extremely developed rook. The only disadvantage of doing the move is pinning our knight which to me seems like less of a negative then having an extremely devolped rook is a positive.

The other possibility is they recapture with the pawn in which case we simply do Ra6. The only way to threaten the rook would be with Qc8 to which we could respond with either a trade or a Ra1.

Any chance you'll change your vote dennis?

Before they would threaten our rook, they could pb5, eliminating our queens option to protect our rook, then our only chance of getting any good from it would be to xa8, then they'd recapture with queen and a move later they'd be harvesting through our left back.

How could they do Pb5?

If they recapture with pawn(like you said), they have a pawn on b6. Then you want to do Ra6. Then they can do Pb5.

[edit]
Next to queen or pawn they could also recapture with knight.
[/edit]

Ah I see what you mean now. I thought you meant they could move there instead of recapturing. Ya and the knight there kind throws a fork in things. I vote for rook retreat aswell then.

Aye!.:)

arrr Ra1

r . . q k . . r*
p . . n b p p .
. . p . p . . p
P p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K .

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Hm, there doesn't appear to be a clear leader yet... this game could last a while.

The pawn at b5, which now survives, mostly locked the queen-side, so now we can probably castle there safely. Our (my ) long-term plan of long castling may still work. We need Qd8-c7 now, I'll move it if FMC agrees. FMC?

I'm quite busy atm (sorry for not answering your PMs yet) but i don't want the match to die... Qd8-c7 is ok.

Then be it!

15... Qd8-c7

r . . . k . . r
p . q n b p p .
. . p . p . . p
P p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K . *

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My first instinct tells me to advance the pawn once more to a6. The plan is to make room for our knight to follow him to a5 then hop over to b7 where it would be perfectly guarded by the pawn, at the same time covering attack opportunities to d8, d6 and c5.

Then black could move their knight to B6.

Until the rook is moved to B8...

Yes, but it does not do any damage there, or do i miss sth.?

Well the rook could kill the knight then, but it would be immediately slaugthered away by the pawn. Trading a knight for a rook is not too bad, imo.

A pawn + knight = 4 points, a rook = 5 points. On top of that we get an extra move as they have to recapture the pawn.

I also dont understand the harm in Kb6.

I also like this move as it gives a possible extra queen possbility for later in the game. Though I'm not voting for the move as I need to put more thought into the current board position.

Edit:
What about g3 then Kh4? It would be a bit more defensive, but we're kind of positionaly down so it may not be a bad thing.

I need to think about that. Only so much for now: If we don't advance to a6 now, this chance won't come again, because black will then most likely advance their own pawn to that field, which would be an advantage for them.

Yeah actually I vote for a6 now, I like the idea of taking the offensive. g3 is something to keep in the front of our minds though.

We have to be careful though. If black answers with Qb6, we should not move our knight, because black could safely take our pawn then, but i still think our pawn would be good on a6.

About g3: I thought about it now and i think it is bad, because black can then move their white bishop to h3, threatening our rook.

ah that is a good point. ok i vote for a6 unless we can find a better move

g3 is generally not advised as it weakens the pawn line. The thing about Rg6 is that next it can advance to c4 and cause some pain later on...

Ok, i move it so. (Even though i've just seen that if black goes nb8, we also can not move our knight, since black could also safely steal our pawn then.)

16.) Pa6

r . . . k . . r*
p . q n b p p .
P . p . p . . p
. p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K .

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16. - Nb8 17. Nc5 <- even better for you

Also the move does make it less desireable for black to do a long castle instead of a short one - even if a long castle would be temptating. If black would do a short castle I'd (playing white) get the queen to the G line and then Bxh7. That'd almost be game over.

Long castling also would be tempting because of g5 and then g4, then maybe advancing the h soldier until the white has to kill it.

Also if white would get the knight to b7 I'd take it with the rook. An advanced soldier + advanced knight > a rook.

I was thinking of Pg5, right now, without waiting to castle.
Stress them now, while they can't react too dangerously.

Also:

16. - Bg5 17. Na5 Nb6 18. Bb7 Nc4
19. - Bxc1 20. Rfxc1 Nxb2 <- not bad

16. - Bg5 17. Bxg5 hxg5 <- would be better for black if the black queen would be in the other side of the table...

But I'm with g5, too.

Fladimir, on which team are you exactly?

Both (Though your post could be taken such that there's something fishy with my calculations... )

Hey, it seems we can have something good at last.. If we play 16...Qc7-b6 now, white will not be able to move knight b3 to a5, so the knight will be again stuck without a place to go, blocking the pawn at b2. (If they move Nb3-a5 we grab the pawn a6 with our queen).

But that's not all of a good news. Now, that the a pawn is so advanced, white pieces can't protect it so well anymore.. The pawn just came to our hands. If we move 16...Qb6 now, on the next move we can play 17...Nb8, attacking the pawn again. And it seems to me white can't protect it with extra piece. So we'll win a pawn, and an active position on the queen-side.

Thas was my long term idea, it seems very dangerous for white. But right now our chances for the queen-side attack seem not bad either. So we can again decide a move or two later..

I think it's better to not let them put their knight to b7. And we'll take the pawn for free.

They can't react dangerously anyway, their pieces are bound and limited in activity. I was hoping to play g7-g5 from long ago, but right now we have a better move. g7-g5 can wait a little, but if white moves g2-g3 we probably should play g7-g5 to block their knight from coming to h4.

If we play Bg5 they will probably exchange bishops with 17.Bxg5. Our bishop is way more active and dangerous than their, and generally defending side want to exchange everything down. We don't need that exchange yet, because we are going to use that bishop in our attack. White does not have a lot of use for their bishop on c1, since most of places it could go are blocked by our or their pawns.

Are you joining the black team? In any case, I hope you change your mind, because we really don't want white knight on a5 or b7, and moving our queen to b6 seems the best way to prevent it. If we move Qb6, we will probably grab a pawn a6 for free some moves later - is it not good? On the other hand, g5 is not so urgent, and we can always play it later, I actually like that move too for our later plans.

2 of my 3 house computer are broken... i wont be able to participate for a while

Actually, I can't really afford the time.
Anyway, it looks like it's black's turn to move?

The situation for white looks pretty grim, the pawn on a6 is horribly weak: it would perhaps have been better to exchange it when that was possible, since Ra1-a4-a1 also cost two precious tempi (rule of thumb: don't move a piece back to the square it was in on the last move, you might as well have not moved at all). Best chance might just be to not put too much resources into defending that pawn and getting the white pieces organised. There are weak spots on c4 and e4 and both black bishops are good, while the white one does nothing and worse, disconnects the rooks.

Some moves I would put in my plan in a situation like this are Nbd2, b3, c4 in an attempt to open up the position. That sequence of moves probably won't work as is because of black's response b4 to c4 (capturuing might also be good for black, but it gives white more opportunity to do something). Alternatively, Nbd2, b3, Ba3 in an attempt to rxchaneg it for black's good black bishop.

The way you think of chess is weird...

Well at least, its foreign to me.

Really? Most chess players seem to do it in more or less that way... (bear in mind: I play at a club; if you don't, that'll make a difference).

How do you think in chess?

His way is quite similar to the way I think of chess.

That's too bad!

So, black team! Shall we move Qb6, or there are some more arguments? Fladimir, are you with us? FMC, I hope no valuable data was lost. Hope you join back soon!

Qb6 sounds best. I really wonder what white's going to do then... I'd like to help both sides but I like black's way of playing much more so I'll join, the black team, OK?

16.) - Qb6

r . . . k . . r
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . . N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . B . . R K .*

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Hey cool FMC, did you change the script? (I can see the pictures now, but i still have not upgraded my browser.)

I can't see any good move for us.

But of course... NO
I am happy it works for you but i don't have the slightest idea of why it does... weird

Weird that is indeed. Just found out it must have sth. to do with a change on allegro.cc, because i can only see them, when i'm logged in. As soon as i logout, all i get is the "picture" caption again.

I'm thinkin Be3 / h3. How do those two sound to you?

Of those two, Be3 seems better, so i vote for Be3.

17.) Be3

r . . . k . . r*
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . B N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K .

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Well, now I understand why black wants to move the knight to H4... let's say that the situation would be like this: The white would have moved the bishop to D2 instead and has just captured the black's bishop at F5. (I don't use images so that no one would think I'd be moving or anything)

Nxf5 exf5
e6 fxe6
Qxe6

And then white could move the knight freely to a5 if he wanted because:

Na5 Qxa6
Nc4 Qb6
Nd6+ Kd8 (Kf8 Qf7X)
Nf7+

And then Nxh8

But it's all speculation as the situation might have changed before white gets the chance to capture the bishop...

Dustin, it's 17.Be3.

Fladimir, welcome to the team.

?? How white can capture our bishop at f5? That bishop is our most active piece, we don't want to exchange it to white's knight, which has almost no places to go. White can't move Nh4 now, and if they first move g3 and then Nh4 we can retreat our bishop to h7, keeping it at active position.

Yeah, I think we should not give them that chance. Should be not too hard.

Now, what do we do? I'd say white team managed to defend the a6 pawn, at least for a moment. If we move Nb8 they can answer Nc5, and it's not clear who's better after following exchange. It does not feel comfortable, and I'd prefer to keep the bishop.

I don't like 17...c5 now, because after exchanges white's pieces are more active and we get weak isolated pawn b5. One way can be to finally castle, short castle in this case. Queen side is getting too hot for our king. Another possibility is to move b5-b4. This will finally open the game, but I have to think more to see if it's good for us.

BTW, now the world championship tournament started in Argentina, a fascinating event, and it's almost a miracle it finally came true. Don't miss it!

I meaned white, not black

I really wouldn't do that... White has most attacking power in the right side of the board. A long castle would be better, don't you think? We'd get an another rook at g8.

But white lacks the mobility. We could strike the white's position quicker than they could attack us.

White has what?

Most likely development of current position will have some verticals open at queen-side. The pawn configuration is too unstable there. If we don't open it, white will do, by moving b3 and then c4. (They will probably do it because they have no other plans anyway, while they have to initiate some activity to try to save pawn a6, or at least to have some initiative). So it would be unwise to put our king to queen-side. If the b or c vertical is open, white can easily double their rooks there and give us hard pressure. On the other hand, our own rooks at king-side will have hard time reaching the battlefield. The plan of king-side attack with long castle, Rg8, g5, h5, and so on, would be meaningful with more stable queen-side, but our king-side attack would need time to develop, while queen-side action will likely begin much sooner.

If the white did not move Be3, things might have been different, but now they can easily move their rook f1 to some active position and we can't grab a5 as fast as I hoped. So, in short, queen-side seems now too dangerous for our king.

White's potential activity on the king-side is close to 0. If the ever try anything there, it will be more advantageous to us, because of our active pieces. I would welcome any white's advancements on the king-side, it will make our life much easier.

We will look for all our chances to strike, of course. And white pieces are now limited in mobility, that's true. But out king-side attack would need time to develop - at least 5 moves before white even has to do anything about it. Much faster than that white can open queen-side and we will have to defend instead of attacking. White can even sacrifice some pawns for that (for opening line b or c).

White has a weak pawn a6. I'd say that pawn is doomed. So, now I would do short castle, put our rooks at b8 and c8, then try to exchange some pawns and press on a6 and b2, and may be e5 if the pawn d4 is not there.

White has a tough time ahead.
Normally i would surrender now, but an old friend of mine cited "Galaxy Quest" for me some time ago: "Never give up, never surrender!" and so i'll stay.:)

I'm no chess expert, but white doesn't look that bad to me. They just don't have much ways to attack, but I think black will have to work hard to get through their defenses, so everything can still change.

I think we might end up losing a pawn, but other then that i think whites position is just fine. Our kings relatively safe, we got a nice pawn chain going. We're at that point that can make or break the game though, so we have to be careful.

There's a weak pawn on a6, which bind the rook on a1, all the pawns are on black squares, making bishop e3 not much better than a pawn itself, the knights don't have sensible places to go and black's bishops are both good, the white-field one being particularly annoying.
Black is better, but apart from the weak pawn he doesn't have an obvious target to attack. As for the weak pawn itself, let black spend some effort in trying to get it if he really wants it. It can give white some time to regroup for a counter attack.

Yes, white basically has towait for black to develop the wrong plan or become overconfident. Which isn't a very satisfying position to be in, being white.

@white: what do you think of the plan Nf3-e1-d3-c5? It'd be a good place for an extra knight, it foils plans black might have for advancing his queen-side pawns and if he exchanges his bishop for the knight... well, that's progress too because it clears up the white squares.

Ah its that strange way of thinking again.

For me, when I think of board position things. I don't care about binded rooks, useless bishops, where knights can go, and I especially never think in terms of a 'counter attack' or even an 'attack'.

For me, its all about what moves are possible at the moment, what possible moves can be made in response, what moves can be made in response, etc. The more effort I put into the recursiveness the better i play. (and theres also an awareness factor). Things like a 'rook being pinned' mean nothing unless you are actually going to need that rook for another move. If it turns out that you do need the rook, you devise a new plan of your move, possible response moves, possible moves for you again, etc. that don't require you to move that rook.

But, aparently according to this form, I'm the one who thinks weird...

We'll see i guess when the game actually gets going and lays itself out.

But that's exactly what tells an unexperienced player from an experienced one. Things like useless bishops reduce the number of possible moves you can do and eventually lead to a disadvantage.

This game is going to take longer than Kasparov vs The World . You should be proud .

Two things are important in Chess: tactics and strategy. What you describe, for the most part, is tactics. That's what you need toworry about on the short term and it's really all that computers can do (and they're good at it - computers barely make tactical mistakes in practice). All playesr start out with tactics because it's tangible and relatively easy to learn.
What I describe is strategy, which is planning for the long term. There's nothing tactically interesting going on right now and what white needs is a strategy. Strategically, white has far less options than black does - which is why black is better.

Think of it this way: if you find that your rook doesn't have any good moves, you can accept that and just do something else, or you can try to prevent that situation from arising by assesing what sort of setup is likely to lead to such a situation. In general, if a piece is not free to move, you may be in trouble when you actually need it to move.

Gettin a little cocky there?

Hm, an interesting point. I don't think I fit (under your definition of methods of chess thinking) as a purely 'tactical' person, though my 'strategy' is in a lot of ways differen't then the way you appear to go about it.

But enough discussion, go already!

I vote for short castling, we need it. (see my previous post for arguments, I don't have power to type it again) Alternative moves. hmm.. I don't know, may be Rb8..

Go already

OK, if there's no more discussion, I'll move it.

17... 0-0

r . . . . r k .
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . B N . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K . *

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In the meantime, Topalov won 5 games out of 6, showing incredible fighting spirit and technique.

I vote for Nc5. (Time to get this game going a little faster...)

That would result in a pawn + knight loss for us traded for a single bishop or knight loss at the blacks choosing assuming they respond properly (which would be to their advantage). Then we'd be confronted with a trade option with our bishop that whether we take or not develops white's pieces a bunch.

All in all I vote strongly against this move. This kind of move is one that could tip the board to our losing.

I vote for either Rf1-e1 (the purpose would be to allow g3 which would allow Nh4 putting more pressure on their kingside and giving the option to trade for black's anoying bishop at f5. a good side effect would be having a rook behind our queen, making for a powerfull attack line for use in the mid- to end- game (though rook being in front of the queen would be nicer...))

or Kh1 (the purpose would be to allow Rg1 which would allow g4 pressuring the annoying bishop on f5 to move. A good side effect would be having a rook lined up with black's king. A bad(?) side effect is voulentarily putting our king in the corner.)

or Ne1 (the purpose would be to next move do Nd3, giving us the tactical advantage over c5 and making a move like Nc5 actually practical)

Note: I'm not voting yet, I want to hear your opinion on these moves first.

What's the use for "applying pressure" against a single peace if it can just go away and cause even more harm that way? If you really want to move g3 then it doesn't matter if you move the rook before that or after Bh3.

I've always thought g3 was one of those moves that usually harm a lot more than help. But you may need to do g3 if black does Qd8 and then Bg5 -Bxg5 Qxg5 and then Nh3 (Qxg2X)

I take back my vote.(I was tired and did not look or think.:P)
Still too tired/exhausted to think straight right now.

Because its in a rather annoying position right now, it would be a step towards getting it to retreat.

My head is not very clear this week...
Could Ph3 be something nice now?(i know we did not move this earlier but maybe it is good now, i don't know)
(No time to look closer, must continue with project...*ugh*)

Ph3 looks pretty good. The problem right now is that just about anything white moves will weaken its position, drastically. Going on the offensive is nothing short of insane right now, so the only choice is to stall or go on the defensive. Moving Ph3 will not only let you increase your defensive structure, you will also lay claim to another square (g4), and make it so that knight has one less thing it needs to worry about protecting (man, that knight sure is keeping track of a bunch of stuff!).

Yeah, i vote for Ph3 then but if my teammate(s) want to move something else, feel free to do so.

Ne1, if you ask my opinion, followed by Ne1-d3-c5; I think Imentioned this line in a previous post.
h3 is pointless unless you're afraid of Bg4, in which case I think Ne1 is better anyway.
g3 is horrible, it weakens the white squares on the kingside (we don't hav a white bishop anymore, so beware of weakening our coverage of the white squares!).
Kh1 is pointless as well and advancing pawns on the kingside is a really bad idea anyway. Queenside is where the action is.

NOTE: pawns don't have an abbreviation. It's Ne1, but h3 (as opposed to Ph3).

I'll have to agree with Ne1 looking best. I don't like making a retreating move to try and get somewhere but everything else looks either pointless or bad. And a pointless move is a bad move.

Come on, do you want the Longest Thread Ever Made to die?

I don't think it's the longest thread ever, but it will be the one for sure before the game ends.

Ok I'll go Ne1 tomorrow if Dennis doesn't post a better suggestion by then (he said "...but if my teammate(s) want to move something else, feel free to do so.").

I thought about it some more and i still vote for h3.
I think Ne1 is not a good idea, because retreating the knight to there, it will not be of much use. I'm absolutely positive that we need it where it is for now.
The follow up move for h3, will be g2-g4 to scare the bishop away.

The problem is, what is to stop black from just moving Be4 after g2-g4?

Nothing. But what is to stop white from just moving Nf3-d2 after Be4?

Nothing... The problem is that it is a "weak move" to go Nf3-d2... you wouldn't attack the Bishop on e4 anyway... you would loose lots of ground (trading a knight and a bishop isn't necessarily the best idea sometimes). You'd end up retreating, and the Bishop on e4 has just attempted to lay claim to squares right next to your king. It is a bit to risky of a move, IMHO. (I'm not on any team, I just like analysing these things)

Right. So we'd probably let the knight stay where it is, even if black moves Be4. Instead probably doing something more useful, like claiming more ground by moving h3-h4.
After all, i do not even think black will move Be4...;)

(This is my 998th post, i will make another post, in another thread now, and then i'll stop posting for a while, because i want to save my 1000th post for announcing the beta version of my current project(which is not quite done yet).:))

Can I veto that? Actually, h3 mightn't be the worst idea...

... this is. We very seriously do not want to create more weak points - and advancing pawns almost always leads to weaknesses in your position. Just look at the a6 pawn for a point in case.
If we're really scared that black will play Bg4, then is the time to play h3.

Of course it's no use on e1, but did you read the proposed sequence of followup moves (ie, Nf3-e1-d3, possibly followed by Nc5)?

Why? What's it doing on f3? It would serve more purpose on d3 than on f3, hence the suggestion Ne1.

I'd also like to keep my vote with Ne1

Okay its been a day now... I'm going to move Ne1 soon unless theres another objection.

Edit:
Been a day without responses now

18) Ne1

r . . . . r k .
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . B . . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . N R K . *

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Black: Now we have one threat - Qf3, Qg3, Bxh6. Should we be worried?

Where did white get third knight from?

What, you don't know the variation of chess where you're allowed to bring an extra knight into the game when it's convenient?
Ok, it had taken on enough mass to multiply by division.
...
ok, just pretend the one on f3 is gone. Just make sure you put one in on e1 if you copy Dustin's chess board.

No. We can defend with Kh8, Kh7, or Bg6. And it will take them two more moves before we have to anything about it, in that time we will probably conquer the queen-side completely.

Now we can start to open up with c5 or b4, or do more preparation with Rab8 or Rfc8. I can't decide which is better now, so I'll think and post more later. I'm celebrating my birthday now.

From your latest theories mass is same thing with energy, which is partly own and partly kinetic (IIRC). Knight's own energy is constant, so the only added energy would be kinetic, so it would have to move faster to get more energy. But it was staying still since the beginning, so clearly it can't have enough energy and therefore mass. If something should multiply it's our knight d7 which made four moves already. (So pocket knight would be the only explanation..)

=P You caught me trying to cheat.

I think we should position our rooks and start pushing pawns, at least I don't see any better strategy for now. So I'd move Rfc8 now. Let's discuss if there are any other ideas.

If no one has objections i'd go with Kirr's idea.

OK, then so we do.

18... Rfc8

r . r . . . k .
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . B . . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . N R K . *

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Sorry, I just had to say this...
Happy 300th!!!
This thread could rival the 4.2.0beta1 thread.

I propose Nd3.

Currently too lazy to think for myself, so i agree and trust in your chess-fu.

19) Nd3

r . r . . . k . *
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. p . p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P N B . . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K .

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It's amazing: the board is still very similar to the one we had 5 pages ago!
We should use a trojan horse if we don't want to turn this game into another 10 year siege

It is going to start changing finally. I think it's time to move b4. If they capture with pawn we will take the pawn back after Qb5, and if they capture with knight we will exchange that knight with our bishop and take on b4 with queen. In both cases our position will be active in the end, and we will press on their two weak pawns - a6 and b2.

If we wait more, they may improve their defence, while there are no things left to improve in our own position.

If black plays b4, we DON'T take it if we can help it. Alternatives that I would look at are either Rfc1 or Ndc5, followed by Rfc1 after an exchange on c5. Note that exchanging the knights may not be ideal.

Of course we don't. We could also try Qh5, after Rfc1(only if all positions in the upper right are still like now, that is).

On second though, Nc5 might not be so bad. It's not clear to me which one though... the d3 one can be taken by the bishop, but the b3 one would be in danger after b4... bxc3 (someone should check if there's anything I've missed in the line b4, Nbc5 Bxd3, Nxd7 Bxe2, Nxb6, but I think not). I guess that makes it Nbc5, as I though initially.

The idea is to clear some pieces out of the way and be able to recapture with a pawn after bxc3 or to play cxb4 after exchanging pieces. The disadvantage of that is the weakness of the backward b2 pawn, which would end up on a half-open file.

I think we'll be OK with any white's reply. After b4 we will get a very strong possible move Qb5, attacking knight at d3 and pinning it at the same time (so that it can't escape). Also, if they move a knight to c5 (any of them) we can exchange both of their knights on c5 and then pawns on c3, leaving them with three isolated pawns. I know Evert would hate it.

After b4, we could also do Ndxb4.

We don't want that, because our position will be weakened after Bxb4, cxb4 Qxb4.

The line with b4, Ndc5 goes roughly b4, Ndc5 Nxc5, Nxc5 Bxc5, dxc5. The black queen has to move away (probably Qb8) and we can play cxb4 (probably followed by Qxb4). White then has a backward pawn on b2 and in addation weak pawns on a6 and c5. The bishop is more or less acting as a long-distance pawn and black's bishop is still good. The endgame will be good for black, but I'm not sure I see a good alternative for white.

Well do something.:P

No more.

[edit]I'm too sleepy to think well, and i don't want to be killed by my team members by doing something stupid.

Well if there are no other ideas..

19... b4

r . r . . . k .
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. . . p P b . .
. p . P . . . .
. N P N B . . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K . *

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Possible moves:
Qd2
Nd3-c5
Nd3-f4

I lack the motivation to continue taking a lot of time into thinking about moves.

doh >_<

Ya well actually me too.:-/

What is it, giving up in the middle of the game? The position is about equal, and just now something at last is going to start happening. You don't have to think a lot about position, and you are in a team already anyway, not on your own! Be a man!

Are you saying the longest thread ever is going to stop at mere page 9? Are you saying the longest chess game ever is going to end just after three months?

yeah, uhh.. Dennis, man up and stuff...

May i take some time for self-pitying... I'm sure i'll have more energy afterwards to think about the game again.:-/

Wow - a chess thread! Here!

May I suggest c3-c4 to the white team?
(If not, sorry for interrupting )

You may, but since it costs a piece after dxc4 I don't think we'll play it.
@white team, I'll have a look this weekend.

Seems as if, chess is more than just pretty popular among the Forums over here. I remember an old chess related thread, it is also kept the people busy for quite a time. Whats the reason behind this chess craze?

Right, I accidentially swapped Be3 with Nd3, sorry.

In that case, I change my suggestion to 20. Ndc5

Its not a craze, we're just playing a game of chess. You can join in if you want to. The white team is kind of falling apart anyway and could use your help.

Edit

Ok i'll vote for this move too.

Hopefully not too off-topic... FMC, would you mind if I started a chess game using your cool Allegro Chess script on some private forum of mine?

I also vote for Ndc5.

Wasn't there some chess website someone made?

[edit] This thread is going on 4 months of age

No problem at all

Over 200 replies, and 4 months old. This could get the longest living thread on a.cc of all times. Perhaps we could ask Matthew if we could see some statistics like that (longest living, and largest thread etc.);D

Right, 20. Ndc5 it is then.

r . r . . . k . *
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P b . .
. p . P . . . .
. N P . B . . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K .

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Actually, now that i think about it. I see that this was the worst move we could do.
Black can go b4xc3 now and it is all to their advantage.

They can, but there's no real helping that, I think. cxb4 would have been worse, as would waiting for bxc3 have been.

bxc3 looks nice, what do you think, black team? Or we can go on with original idea Nxc5. Which is better?

Wouldn't that (bxc3) allow them to get our knight in d7 for free?

No, since we will in turn capture their knight at b3 for free.

Thinking of it i agree, queen in b3 is stronger than their knight in d7 (which would be nearly paralyzed).
My only issue is with Ra3, that would put our queen in danger.

We will probably not put our rook on a3, because of your bishop on e7.

Ops, with all those pieces in the middle right now i didn't see that.

I vote for bxc3

OK, I also vote for bxc3, after second thought. It makes more tension, with more hanging pieces.

Yeah, and we are even not yet playing shogi or go.

So be it!

20 ..., bxc3

r . r . . . k .
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N p . B . . .
. P . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K .*

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I vote for Nxd7.

21) Nxd7, Qxb3
22) Nf6, xf6
23) xf6, Bxf6
24) Bxh6, xb2?
25) Rb1?

22 could be K*, but then we get a free move so no loss there.

Anything I'm missing here?

The Black bishop on f5 that is guarding b1?
(EDIT: also, we're a piece down after the sequence of exchanges you posted: we lose both knights, black just one).
Frankly, I don't think we have any choice but to retake the pawn (rule of thumb: if someone captures one of your pieces, recapture - or you're a piece down) simply because otherwise the black pawn becomes too dangerous.
That's not saying that the line you suggested isn't interesting, but I don't think we can allow cxb2.

I would say xc3, because we don't have anything to protect our knight on b3, except our other knight on c5.
If we do Nxd7 then the black queen can pick our knight for free or put our rook under stress with the pawn.

Whatever we do, i vote for letting the knight stay on c5.
If black captures it, we will recapture with our other knight, not with the pawn, because then we'd lose our knight anyway.

I vote for xc3.

I'd like to vote for Nxd7 again. Reasons in PM to Evert and Dennis.

edit
I take it back, I missed the retreat.. I gotta think about this some more.

I don't see your logic here... If we took it with the pawn they wouldn't be able to capture the pawn back. Not without losing more pieces then us anyway..

edit
alright, xc3

Wait! no i take that back again... I still have more thinking to do.

Still thinking?

Evert an I are going through a few things. I think I'm about ready to give up and just go xc3 though, what do you think Evert?

To keep the thread alive:
I still vote for xc3.:)

I vote for xc3

If they actually move xc3 we could Qxb3 or is it dangerous?

It's dangerous, you'd lose your queen.(Nxb3)

I agree, but it was more a bump to make you actually move than a true idea, i didn't really check

Ok I'll move xc3 if Evert doesnt come and object by the next time I find myself looking at this thread.

r . r . . . k .*
p . . n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . B . . .
. . . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K .

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Possible moves?

We could advance with our pawns on h5 or what?
I don't see a great deal of thigs we can do atm

Hi FMC, one possible plan would be to exchange both white knights on c5, and then try to do something against white weak pawns (on a6, c3, c5 and e5). At the moment this seems the only reasonable plan for black. Don't move it yet, let's think a little more.

I don't really like c5, what if they eat us with the pawn?
Then we'd have to move the queen to another place and then they'd have a VERY strong spot on c5... quite hard to choose a move.

The better way would be to sacrifice bishop and move him to c5. Then watch what will happen. You could be more agressive.

Yeah, such place would be b3.

It's simply exchange, why sacrifice? We take a piece, then they take a piece. After we capture on c5 (with either knight or bishop) they have no choice but to recapture with knight, otherwise we take that knight. And then if we recapture again they will capture with pawn, producing doubled pawns, in addition to the separated pawn on a6. Seems not bad but I don't really see the way to gain more advantage after that.

After some thinking I also like Rd8. I would prefer to avoid exchange for now, or it will be too simple and less interesting. So, I'd vote for Rd8 or Rc7, but please discuss more if you like something else.

I was just saying that it's better to exchange bishop for knight than knight for knight.

Hi OICW, I think it's a matter of preference. I like to keep bishop, because it is slightly stronger in endgame, where we are heading now. Especially when all rooks are still on board.

After some more thought I like Rc7 most in current position, because I don't think exchanges are good for us yet. I don't see a winning plan after exchanges on c5, and I slightly prefer to keep both bishops, if we can. What do you think, FMC, Flad?

Well, do something..

I didn't watched whole game, and I'm not supposing to do turn on c5, it's upt to you, in my opinion Knight is more valuable, but like you said it's matter of preference. Rc7 looks promising.

Do you think this game will be finished before 2006 starts?:D

Honestly, I thank that it will never get finished. It's an A.cc tradition to not finish anything .

Blasphemy!

.. but true:-/

OK, I guess we should do something.. No comments from my team-mates, so I'll go ahead.

Since h5 gives our pawn away for free, I will disregard this choice.

OK, so we should not move on c5 either.

There were no other positive ideas, except by OICW to exchange a bishop. I like Rc7 better and OICW thought it's OK too, so I'll move it.

OICW, why don't you join our team?

21... Rc7

r . . . . . k .
p . r n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P b . .
. . . P . . . .
. N P . B . . .
. . . . Q P P P
R . . . . R K . *

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Having looked on the board only for some seconds, i would put Rb1 up for discussion. I'm not sure which one though.

A bishop is worth less then a rook so i wouldnt go that way, (Bf5xb1), also to recapture with the other rook we'd lose the defender of our pawn.

How about Qd1 or g4?

Doh, i did not see that bishop on f5.
g4 seems to be a good idea, it will scare that bishop away.

He's offsides! 10 par penalty on the defense.

That being said, this thread is amazing.

I haven't played for ages and I'm kind a lame. But anyway this seems like never ending game - both sides are trying to hold on Status Quo in next turn. I'll be watching, maybe next time.

If nobody vetoes until tomorrow morning(in about 15 hours for me), i'll move g4 then.:)

Heh did you considered that you'll give them Queen for free or didn't I see something?

I'm worried about our knight on b3 (hence the queen move to protect it).

Pawn to g4, not queen to g4.;)

That threat is currently not imminent, because of our other knight protecting it.
If we put our pawn to g4 and team black does not move away their bishop, it will be down.(Their bishop has just two places to go for safety.)
After that we can still take up any actions necessary if the knight on b3 should need further protection.
But i don't think it will, because sooner or later the big slaughtering will start on one side.:D

It's only an illusion. Just think of what might happen to it if an accident would happen to the other knight... (Sorry for advicing the enemy )

Yeah, I would classify that as an illusion. Black has three pieces attacking that knight, when white only has two defending (one of which it is defending). All black has to do is exchange perform an exchange for the knight, and you're going to be in a world of hurt. (My personal guess is that they will try to pull Be7 x c5)...

All black has to do is Nxc5 (- dxc5) and then Qxb2. Exchanging every peace in c5 would only win us a pawn.

EDIT: Or not, of course black would hit Nxc5 before that... Damn with me!

Bascially what it boils down to is move our queen back to seal our control on the left side of the board, or try to gain more control over the right side. Either path has its benifits and pitfalls. The threat with going for the right side is spreading ourselves too thin and losing pieces and or board position on the left side. This would be especially bad because we wouldnt be gaining much on the right side anyway.

Our bishop makes a perfect "second line" defender.
And the exchanges will go:
(if black starts the attack)
either: Nxc5 - Nxc5 - Bxc5 - pawn xc5 and then blacks queen needs to go away because of our bishop
or: Bxc5 - Nxc5 - Nxc5 - pawn xc5 and then...

It's not an illusion, i am not convinced and i still vote for pawn to g4.:)

[append]

With g4, we will gain a lot. Our queen i want to stay there, because after the exchanges it will prevent black from boldly moving their queen into the "2"line.

[append2]
I'm tired now, i'll be back tomorrow for more discussion.

Ok I'm convinced. I vote for g4 (I feel we're going to go buy a mac or something ).

Ok, so we have two votes for g4 and a few comments lacking an alternative move suggestion.
Consequence: We move g4.

r . . . . . k . *
p . r n b p p .
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P b . .
. . . P . . P .
. N P . B . . .
. . . . Q P . P
R . . . . R K .

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Black has no significant weaknesses on the kingside of the board (h6 is a minor weakness though). Try anything there and Black is going to rip through White's defences on the queenside before your attack gains momentum.

Great, I'm just late enough to object. That's another weak pawn in the making: it has no backup and it leaves weaknesses on h4 and f4. It also doesn't really do much. As a rule of thumb don't move pawns unless you have to or it gives you a clear tactical or strategic advantage. Otherwise it just creates weaknesses in your position.

Black has one possible weakness that I can see: the backward C pawn. I think the correct plan would be to play Rfc1, followed by c4. Black isn't stupid though, so he won't play dxc4, hoping that white plays cxd5, after which black plays cxd5 and doesn't have any problems. It's not entirely clear to me how white should proceed. Maybe Rfc1/c4/Rc4/Rac1 is a good setup. It's also possible white has to play a preemptive Nxd7 at some point. An immediate c4 might have been something to consider too.

I would turn be4.

At this point of the game, i do not see the necessity to protect h4 and f4. That pawn will not stay weak for long. My idea is that it will form the head of a new row of pawns.
If they move be4 now, as OICW suggests, we'd pull out the next pawn to scare it away from there. If they retreat the bishop somewhere else, we'll pull it out the next pawn even farther to f4, then on the next move(provided that the big exchange party has not started) g4-g5 will be the follow up.
As i see it, this will be all good for us, as we will be gaining a lot of ground on the right side and there is not really anything black can do against that.

No, but at some point it will be if black decides to take advantage of the weakened kingside. Besides, it's not about it being nescessary to protect f4 and g4, it's about not creating more weaknesses.

Are you mad?!
That will leave our king exposed in the open. If you do that, you had better follow it up with one hell of a king-side attack and a plan for mate, because otherwise it's suicide.

I don't know. I might play Be4 as Black to get white to play f3. Actually, scratch that: if black plays Be4 now, we should probably take it with the knight. It's blacks strong bishop and he won't want to exchange it (so I think black will play Bg6 or Bh7).

The one plus side: black will probably want to keep his black-squared bishop and not exchange it on c5. Now, what to do after Nxc5, Nxc5 Rb8 with the thread Qb2?

Anyway, don't mind me too much. I rarely have time to play anyway. I did win a semi-nice game yesterday though.

Hehe, I'm really looking forward for c5 exchange party. It looks so nice.

Hi all, this is by far the most entertaining thread in Allegro.cc for long time for me. (or is it just me?).

We should more bishop to h7 now. Of course not to e4 where it will be taken by the knight. That bishop rules the game.

I agree with Evert's worries about exposed king and weak pawns. That's why I did not want exchanges on the previous move. With little material it becomes much easier to play correctly. So, OICW, I hope to not exchange things too soon, leaving white with obvious defence plans, but to maintain this complex situation. Also we will need our pieces for attack.

That was just a thought, of course bishob must fall back - he'll be back

No i am not mad. Well, which of the pawns(f or g) will form the actual head, will be dependend on how the situation with that bishop will turn to be.
It is not going to be a hell of an attack but it will dry out any of their possible attack plans on the other side of the board, because we will have the power to disturb almost everything they do with just these two pawns(and they are marvelously backed up by that rook, which i also want to keep next to the king, because otherwise that plan will not work so nicely).
(some pawns will die in the process but that's nothing to worry about)
Our king is not left in the open. Just watch blacks' pieces, trace every possible move for them, they have no chance to get even near to our king.
And let's not forget that with every move they make, we will also have a move afterwards.
Basically we can elegantly evade any provocation and at the same time make progress to push back that bishop into uselessness.
I'm not saying that it is going to be easy to win this game.
It will be rock hard and every move will need deep thought but it is possible...
...this is not backed up by prove but by six facts:
Black can not march in from the left side.
Black can not march in from the right side.
Black can not march in from the center.
We will claim a lot of ground on the right side soon.
We control the situation on the left side.(If we don't do anything there, all that they do will not be an advantage.)
Some pawns are stuck in the center.(ours and theirs with the nice side effect that we do not need ours now)

Thunderbolts and lightning shall strike me, if i'm wrong about that.

Now i am to ask if you are mad? If we do that, blacks queen is free to go harvesting pieces.
As it is now, blacks queen is stuck and won't go anywhere.(More to that in response to Kirr below.)

We would be very stupid taking it with the knight, because then you'd walk away with our other knight for free and the exchange party would not work.
As long as you don't start anything to exchange pieces on c5, NOTHING will happen on that side of the board and to whose advantage is that? Not yours, because we will NOT(i hope my teammates agree) start it and we will NOT change any pieces to the worse.
That bishop rules nothing, in fact it'll be rendered useless in a few moves from now.(Again that situation depends on, if, how and when the exchange party gets going.)

That describes your situation pretty well. I don't really know what's so nice about "claiming ground" anyways, black will just attack in the queen side and you can't really do anything about it. If you only look at what we move and then respond to that (without planning the defense in advance) it just won't work.

About moving soldiers... what was the one in a6 supposed to do, anyways? "Claim ground"? (well, at least it prevents Tb7, for now)

Not a knight for free, but a soldier (in c3). If we take your knight, you just move away with the other knight and that's it.

PS. - Bg6 suits for me...

The point is, if you moved be4, we would not take it with our knight, because then you would get to release your queen AND take our other knight in the same move.
That is why we would NOT pick your bishop from e4, because we do NOT want your queen to be able to stroll around freely.
That the knight and several other pieces(on both sides btw) will die, is sure as the "Amen" in the church but what is important here is the sequence in which that will take place.:)
And black can not attack on the queen side without starting the exchange on c5, because all their pieces are stuck there with no way to go.

White doesn't have time to do anything with that before black breaks through on the Queenside.

You're kidding me. With Black controlling the B file, controlling the white squares and white having a weak pawn on a6? What happens after the knight on c5 is gone? What's to stop Black from doubling his Rooks and marching in?

I wouldn't call an exchange a harvest. Ok, maybe we lose c3 too. c6 is weak though.

You want to exchange pieces on c5?! Let's do a head count: white loses two good horses. Black loses the bad bishop and the poorly placed knight and gains the open b file.

Black will exchange as soon as he can without problems.

We most certainly won't.

Come again? You have a concrete plan to block off that diagonal that doesn't involve recklessly advancing our Kingside pawns?

Shesh calm down. Your both on the same team . Besides, you're helping black too much by talking .

Come on Evert, don't spoil the party! I want to see that white's pawn strom on the king-side.

Although very unlikely, we may want to advance the g pawn at some point. Another point is that if white will be brave enough to advance the f pawn until f5, we will most certainly want to do some more active moves rather than saving the bishop once again.

OK, the real line would be something like 22...Be4 23.Nxe4 Qxb3 24.Rfb1 (attacking the queen) Now the queen can't take pawn c3 because it's still protected by knight at e4, and the only place to our queen to go would be c4, where white will happily exchange the queens, leaving us with bad pawn structure and controlling the b-vertical. So, Be4 is totally to the white's advantage.

We're just disagreeing on the strategy and the evaluation of the position. Don't worry about it.
By the way, if you've made a plan you should stick to it and play consistently. For a kingside attack, I don't really see a plan so I'll likely keep out of it and try to get back in at a later point (assuming we survive long enough).

Nah. I haven't said anything black wouldn't be able to see or figure out for himself easily. Now, when it comes to discussing possible black moves and why I think some are better than others, I will keep my mouth shut!

So would I, being black!

Yes i want that of course.(I thought it was obvious.)
But black needs to start it. After that, i disagree that they'll get anything, because their queen can not march in there.
At most it could move to b3 next to our pawn, which we can easily counter putting our queen to d2.
A simple head count does not do the situation justice, it is also important here to keep in mind, which heads can move where and if they are occupied on the wrong side of the board, away from the action.

I hope so! I want all those pesky horses and bishops gone.(I am not mad. It is all for the good.)

The diagonal will be blocked, a white pawn will die, a black pawn will die. The bishop will get stuck on the kingside.
This game is not going to end quickly. It is going to be a slow drying out of pieces.

That's what i was saying all the time. The protection from the knight would not last long though, because of your pawn on d5.

Agreed.

Yes, i am calm all the time. Some viewers might actually get the impression that it is all mad, but it is not.
Most people here probably think that black is going to win anyway(me excluded) and that their situation is much better than whites.
But it is not. It would become that if we would have stayed behind like a sitting duck, waiting for black to prepare more and more pieces for an attack.
So this is absolutely not a situation in which white should cowardly sit and wait.
It is the time for cunning plans and calculated casualties to turn the rudder around to whites advantage.
In other words: We do not have anything to loose that we have not lost already a few pages ago.

And that is probably why i'm misunderstood with my plan. There is currently no way for either side to have a concrete "kingside/queenside/attack plan" and to finish this game fast with an early checkmate.
The plan is about thinning out both armies(good riddance) and then aims for a slow death of blacks pieces until only the king is left.
It's gonna be some kind of "John Rambo Warfare"...;D
Currently i am the bloodthirsty John Rambo and Evert is the p(ie/ea)ce-loving Colonel Trautman.;)

I agree. Neither have I.
If black advances their pawn to g6 however, we need to make sure our bishop is not blocked, so we can pick the other one on h6 then.

All speculation has been made for now i think, it would be pointless to say more now. Any plan will only last until the first contact with the enemy and then needs to be adjusted, depending on the new situation.

It doesn't matter. Black can put both rooks on the b file and controls b1 through the white bishop.

It's not what you were saying above (where you said you would not want to take the bishop with the knight).

I don't know if black is going to win, but I do think blacks position is better, because of the weak white pawn on a6, the power of the white bishop and black's ability to occupy the b file. Black also doesn't have major weaknesses.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean it's the time for a reckless kingside attack.

There is a clear plan of attack for black. And who said anything about finishing this game quickly with checkmate? Few games ever are.
I'll settle for a drawn out game where black has to work hard to earn his point (if he earns it at all).

I still say the endgame is better for black.

Who?

Yes i would not take it with the knight. "That's what i was saying all the time." was referring to "what i said would happen, if we did" agreeing to the line of moves that Kirr posted.

Never seen "Rambo" the movie with Sylvester Stallone?
Trautman(if i spelled that right) is John Rambo's boss. John Rambo is a Vietnam Veteran coming back from the war... and then yadda yadda yadda. I don't want to tell the full story here. Here is a summary.

However, it's still blacks' move now, we can continue to argue when it's ours again.

Hello
Just had my internet connection restored after a couple weeks, and this is the first thread i checked!
So, dear team mates, what is the actual situation in a summary?

This must be the longest thread ever .

Hi FMC! White team is playing rambo, so we are now thinking were to retreat our bishop - to g6 or h7. (I like h7 better). Overall we are doing very well, white team is in panic and going to start a suicide attack on king-side.

Hi Kirr, thanks for the debriefing.
It seems we don't have much of a choice, g6 or h7, there isn't much difference but i too would go with h7... if no one objects i'll move it tomorrow morning (as in 24h from now)

For real? I wanted to know that 8)

OK, I'll post it. FMC and I like Bh7, Flad liked Bg6, so two to one, it's Bh7.

22... Bh7

r . . . . . k .
p . r n b p p b
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P . . .
. . . P . . P .
. N P . B . . .
. . . . Q P . P
R . . . . R K . *

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Pawns to the front i say: On with the plan is f2-f4. (this will block our bishop for one move and it can't directly take h6, if black does g7-g6, but it still is ok)

I'm not going to think about a followup to a plan I neither see nor believe in. So unless you want to hear about other things (which were probably better without g4) I'll just keep quiet.

That's ok, Evert. I respect that decision, not saying that we won't need you later on, so i hope you'll keep watching.

I think I might like f3 more then f4. And I want to get Qd1 in on one of these moves. Don't want to vote yet though, want to think about it some more.

I'm having problems(well actually it's likely the phone companies fault...) with my internet connection since yesterday, so i can't come here often. And from the 14th Dec to the 20th Dec, i won't be home and will not have any internet connection either, so...

I vote for f4, black will probably do g6, then i vote for f5, they'll x'it, we'll x'it back with the pawn on g4, they'll x'it again, we'll x'it with our rook... at some point we can also x the pawn on h6 with our bishop.

[edit]
No wait, we won't x'it with our rook, because they still have their bishop there, so maybe f3 is better. It must be somehow avoided at all cost, that they move g6, which it is with f3, because as long as our bishop has h6 as a possible target, they won't move g6.

Dennis, I don't know why you are so afraid of our g7-g6. It would make our bishop totally useless, so it would be a very bad idea to move it. Surely we will find something better to do instead.

If you move f2-f4 and we move g7-g6, then you don't even have to move f4-f5 - our bishop is locked behind the pawns and practically out of game. You can happily proceed to convert the advantage. So don't worry, we will not move g7-g6 until it's is absolutely necessary, or until the bishop is out of that corner.

Oh yes, i must have been very tired not to see that.
So I still vote for f2-f4.
(Thanks for the hint, Kirr!)

Ok I'll vote for it too (f4).

If white team moves f4 I'll vote to start the exchange party at c5, because that will be the only way to move our bishop out of corner. We'll put that bishop at e4, where it can't be attacked by pawns or knights anymore. Then we'll march in on the queen side.

Ok, since Evert said, he would keep quiet for a while, we'll move f4.
If black should get the idea to still do g7-g6, we should consider advancing our g pawn.
If they start the exchange on c5, we'll follow it, they'll have to move their queen away after the last exchange(our pawn takes their bishop or knight, whatever the order is), she might march in, but she won't get very far and after she has "marched in", we might want to advance the f pawn to prevent them from moving the bishop to e4.

23. f2-f4

r . . . . . k . *
p . r n b p p b
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P . . .
. . . P . P P .
. N P . B . . .
. . . . Q . . P
R . . . . R K . 

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Looks great again status quo - time to get moving. I'd turn pf6 - just thought.

If we move f6 white will capture our pawn e6 with their knight. (f7-f6 leaves pawn e6 unprotected). May be they would not notice, but I don't want to try.

I think the best would be to start exchanges at c5, because otherwise the white may get some initiative and equalize the position.

OICW, did you decide to join the mighty black team already?

Doing so would leave our other knight as unprotected fast food for your queen.

Hi Dennis. If we take that knight you will surely not hesistate to take our rook at c7, which will be also left unprotected.

Ah, i see Kirr... my eyes seem to be vacationing lately. Maybe you want to offer us to draw the game?;D:P:-X

A draw would be... anticlimatic
But i agree this is getting exhausting.

Anyway i vote for the c5 move, maybe the exchange will make the game more interesting.

Hell yeah c5, I would also consider f6 turn
And no, I didn't joined neither team, I'll be only observer.

OK, then it's exchange party.

You gotta be kidding?

23... Nxc5

r . . . . . k .
p . r . b p p b
P q p . p . . p
. . n p P . . .
. . . P . P P .
. N P . B . . .
. . . . Q . . P
R . . . . R K . *

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At last, I wonder what figure will go to c5 in the next turn.

The pawn, of course!

Yes, yes but then and then and then - oh no the queen has been eaten

And then black gets nice 2 for 1. Take one knight, get another one free!

I can't see any exchange scenario, which will involves queen doing something other than Qxb3 or final Qxc5, eventually moving a bit to b5 or b7 to avoid attack.

No! The knight has to go to c5 now. The pawn goes to c5 after and if blacks bishop has taken our knight.

Damn, this is the last post i can make now. From tomorrow until the 20th of December, i will not be home.

Come on, the exchange isn't that bad

Freakin A, this is why I wanted to do Qd1. Damnit . Ok I vote for Kxc5

I'll bump this thread until white team moves.. BTW, I don't think the game is decided yet, the material is equal and I don't see clear winning plan.

As my friend used to say: "No game in chess history was saved by a resignation".. and "Don't be too fast to resign - you are not playing with Capablanca, are you?"..

Actually for those who don't follow the FIDE World Cup - in the semi-final game Aronian - Bacro (a day before yesterday), Bacro resigned in drawn position. A very rare happening in that level of tournaments.

Dennis should be back tomorrow, right?

I don't think it is either. But if we had the queen at d1, black wouldnt have been able to make this exchange. Or at least, it would have been foolish.

Hi everybody, i'm back.
So, do we move knight to c5 now? (I thought the exchange party would already be over when i came back...)

Thats what I'm voting for

24... Nxc5

r . . . . . k . *
p . r . b p p b
P q p . p . . p
. . N p P . . .
. . . P . P P .
. . P . B . . .
. . . . Q . . P
R . . . . R K .

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ec5?

I vote for Bxc5, otherwise they will move f4-f5 locking our bishop at h7.

ec5 or Bxc5... are they not the same?

Thinking in advance: If black(after the exchanges) moves their queen to b3, we can move our queen to d2 to save that pawn.

No, ec5 would typically mean `pawn from e-file to c5', which is nonsense, so the meaning is clear. But the correct notation is Bxc5.

Ok...

24. ..., Bxc5

r . . . . . k .
p . r . . p p b
P q p . p . . p
. . b p P . . .
. . . P . P P .
. . P . B . . .
. . . . Q . . P
R . . . . R K .*

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i vote for f5.

(replied to your PM, Dustin)

I vote for d4xc5.

Agreed

r . . . . . k .*
p . r . . p p b
P q p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . . . . P P .
. . P . B . . .
. . . . Q . . P
R . . . . R K .

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I think that black are in the world of sh*t.

OICW, you are under wrong impression, probably because white pawns "claimed" more ground.

We should save our queen now, so we have only two moves - Qb8 and Qb3. I vote for Qb3 because it active, and attacks white pawn. White will probably defend the pawn, and then we will move our bishop from h7 to e4. We will have active position, and our bishop will attack squares just next to white king, which may come in handy later.. :-)

In a twist of irony, it looks like the pawn on a6 is now doing white a favor by preventing Rb7. Otherwise black would be able to double the rooks very rapidly. Now he must first retreat the c7 rook, which buys white about two moves to do something useful.

I should never have used that expression, guess it will be held against me for all eternity now.:P

There isn't much choice, is it?
I'm okay with Qb3

Not because white pawns claim more ground, but because they have to retreat or lose the queen.

OK, then here we go.

25... Qb3

r . . . . . k .
p . r . . p p b
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . . . . P P .
. q P . B . . .
. . . . Q . . P
R . . . . R K . *

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OICW, who is going to lose queen, and how? Losing queen can be important, it's better if you share your plan. :-)

We might consider sacrificing that pawn on c3 and rather not protect it by moving the queen to d2.
It might be a better idea to advance the f pawn to not allow their bishop to come out.

Ok, now it looks balanced. I was not supposing to loose the queen.

If we move the f pawn up the way i see the trade going down is we lose two pawns, black one, and their bishop still isnt blocked

but they need the bishop to take our second pawn and then it gets taken by our rook

I don't like the idea of sacraficing a pawn for it though, and leaving their queen so deep inside of our defense

Any ideas how we can save the pawn AND prevent the bishop from getting to e4 then?

I know I said I'd shut up, but anyway: you don't sacrifice a pawn unless there is a good reason for doing that. Meaning that you have some sort of compensation for it.
What sort of compensation do you get from sacrificing that pawn? What move can you do to improve white's position? And is that enough compensation for a pawn?
If the answers are `nothing', `none' and `no', then don't sacrifice the pawn. If the answer is `we have to sacrifice the pawn because otherwise black has a better position' then it's not really a sacrifice: it's a loss, because black's position is already better for being a pawn ahead.
Losing the c3 pawn gives black a free pawn on d5, which may not look that dangerous right now, but black can always keep the threat of advancing it while looking for other weaknesses and white needs to stay alert.
I think it may be worthwhile for black to sacrifice a pawn to get his bishop on e4 (black completely owns the white squares and white has no defence), but that doesn't mean it's worth it for white to sacrifice a pawn to prevent that.

If you're going for a kingside attack (not saying that you should, I don't think white stands a chance when he tries), consider Rf3 with the possibility of Rh3 (or Rg3) and the opening of lines for the bishop and queen. It's probably too slow: black will have invaded over the b file before white has a chance for opening up the kingside. There may be combinations from the Rf1/Be3 pair after Qxc3, but I don't see a suitable target for the bishop right now.

I don't think it will matter too much what white does at this stage because I think black's position is good enough already. Maybe Rc1 Be4 can be followed with c4 (to try to get black to exchange the d5 pawn), but unless there is something more convincing than ... dxc4, Rxc4 Bd5 I don't think it's worthwhile.

So... what did I want to say again? `Don't sacrifice the pawn', I think. But I think black's position is good enough that it doesn't matter one way or the other.

What if they don't pick c4 and instead move their bishop on to d3? That would make us decide whether we want to lose our queen or a rook.
So i think Rc1 is not a good idea.

I don't know what to vote for, because i played through all options and i agree that blacks position is good enough. It does not matter what we do now, the only chance for us would be that black makes a mistake, which is highly unlikely.
Some moves we can do now would delay our death a little longer, some other ones would bring it more quickly.:(

The bishop on d3 is unprotected. Either way, I meant Rfc1.

I hate to sound pedantic and say `I told you so'... but I did...

What can be done is to try to make it as hard as possible for black to get ahead. His position is better, yes, but let him work and sweat for that point. This means not giving him any new advantages and challenging his current ones.
So this means: we don't give away material and we don't exchange anything (except if we can exchange our bad bishop for black's good bishop). I'm inclined to suggest Qd2 as a defence because it protects the pawn and it strengthens the bishop if white does decide to open up the kingside position (that's really the only plan left, even if it's a poor one). There is also one other thing to consider: black's position is good because he owns the white squares. White does not own the black squares because his bishop is bad. If it's possible to clear away f4 and e5, then the white bishop could become strong on the b8-h2 diagonal. I think this is the only possibility for counterplay there is.

No, after c4 it would be protected by their queen. But yes Rfc1 is better then, so we can just move our queen out of the way in response to d3.

That's ok, but i don't think that this could have been prevented with any of the other options. (only delayed)

I agree. But letting him get the bishop to e4 will strengthen his position, while we don't gain anything. After their bishop is on e4, i think we will have lost the only chance of locking it away. The problem with advancing our f pawn now though is that this will not only lock their bishop a few moves later, but it will also lock our rook on f(if they decide not to sacrifice their bishop).

Because of that, i vote for Qd2, even though i think that this is the quicker death for us.(there is the danger of checkmate in that, because black has all the time in the world to get their rooks prepared, while we will not have all too many movement options left that won't make our situation even worse)

But still, somehow the game must go on, so i vote for Qd2.

Why did I let you convince me to not move Qd1! My god I'm regretting it now .

r . . . . . k . *
p . r . . p p b
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . . . . P P .
. q P . B . . .
. . . Q . . . P
R . . . . R K .

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Hi Black team and all! It seems we have only one choice now - Be4, getting us position that I had on my board about 5 pages ago. Our bishop at e4 will be perfectly placed, becoming our strongest piece, because it will also be invalnerable there - protected by pawn and with white's knights and light-squared bishop out of game (and too advanced pawns), their only way to get rid of that bishop will be by exchanging it with their rook. In contrast, white's bishop is not much more than a pawn now, thanks to pawn at c5.

The problem with advancing f pawn is that it will actually not lock the bishop, at least not for long. So I think white did the right thing. What Evert said is very well too, including strong pawn at d5.

Evert, you have to admit now that rook posision at c7 makes sense. In many variations of king-side pawn exchange that rook will play critical role in defending our pawn f7 or g7, saving us most important tempo, and also if g7 is empty that rook can come there with just one move. That rook is the main reason why any white's king-side attack will fail.

I'm looking forward to see the whole move list after this game is finished. (And i expect some analyzation from the experts.;D)

Now go play Be4 already.

FMC is not around recently? Anyway, since there is no any real alternative to Be4, I think it's OK to play it.

26... Be4

r . . . . . k .
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . . . b P P .
. q P . B . . .
. . . Q . . . P
R . . . . R K . *

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Analyzation from the experts will reveal a lot of mistakes on both sides.

In light of the threat Qc2, I propose Rc1 (that is, Rfc1).

I'd like to push that f pawn now.

edit: we need that rook to keep pressuring kingside.

What is the threat of Qc2? As i see it, Qc2 does only threaten our queen and if they dare to take it, it will be queens exchange.

But advancing f now would still have the same effect as we already discussed above.
(In Evert's words: "What sort of compensation do you get from sacrificing that pawn?" (none) so let's not waste those pawns.)

So Rac1 might also be an option, that way we will prevent Qc2 as Evert said while at the same time we will keep the other rook ready for (whatever)battle on the kingside.
(currently we don't need the Rook on a, because a6 isn't threatened at the moment)

Exactly. I'm not sure now if black would actually do that, but we certainly don't want to exchange queens, or any other pieces for that matter (except the bishops). Keep the game complicated and don't give black an opportunity to simplify. Make him work for that point.

True, but I'm not entirely sure that white has a chance there. I think most of the action will be centre or queen-side, which the rook on f1 is doing little to help with. The rook on a1 does have a function: it limits the squares of the black queen. But whichever rook you pick, you'll usually find a good reason why you should have picked the other one after a couple of moves.

Convinced. I vote for Rfc1 then.

We gain an entry point to his king while maintaining control over the kingside by means of a rook, bishop and queen. Playing the game out with someone I mated them fairly easily pushing the f pawn.

I still vote for a push of the f pawn.

You mean they get an opening in our position. True, white has more pieces kingside than black does, but black has a queen in white's position, a bishop that cannot be dislodged from looking in the general direction of white's king and two rooks that can be brought to bear quickly if he needs to. That, and black's king has better protection from his pawns than white's king.
White's position is worse than black's. Don't simplify, don't exchange and don't open up the game unless we can also control the centre.

No offence, but I think that the person you played with didn't know what he was doing if he allowed himself to be mated easily starting from that position. Show some variations and a clear plan and I'm open for discussion.

Sorry, i've been a little busy lately, but now i'm back!

It seems that we can't agree on what to move.:-/

Maybe we could compromise with Rac1?

http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/558935#target

Yeah I already read that post.

edit
I think the main difference between our strategies is you want to go up the left side, while I want to go up the right side.

Actually, my only strategy right now is to not simplyfy the game. Keep things complicated and don't open up the position so that black has to work as hard as possible for that point.
You can try to go all or nothing and do an ill-adviced attack on the king side that probably will not work (thus ending up with nothing) or try to fight for a draw.

We could fork the game, but then it will not be team chess anymore. I hope you will agree on some move. (But I won't tell which one I like more) :-)

We can always do a game analysis discussion when this is over.
I'll move sometime tomorrow morning, so people have until then to change my mind!

I really want to push that f pawn..

Maybe a fork is in order

And I already told you why I think it's a bad idea. I've yet to see a concrete variation that shows it's a good idea.

However, an other idea just occured to me: try to bring a rook to b4, either via a4 or c4. A possible sequence of moves could be 27. Qd4 and Ra4 as soon as possible. This has the effect of blocking up the open file and unless black retreats the queen, it gets trapped behind enemy lines.

There are a few subtleties involved here because black can play Rb8 very quickly as a counter measure and white's second line will be poorly defended after Qd4, but the idea is too interesting to dismis so quickly. I'll try to have a real look at the position this evening.

So, delaying again, but it may be for a good reason!

By the way, next time we do this, we should have a time limit on making the next move...

Hm, actually, looking at Re8/7, i think I'll agree with Rfc1

Hmm... I went away for 4 days and thought there will be some progress when I'll come back. Having a time limit is good idea, but I'm afraid such game will not last long.. I guess we are lacking motivation. We need prize or something here.. :-)

True, but i don't know what is keeping us from moving now. After all we seem to agree on Rfc1 to be the least bad move we can do.

Forgot to look for this thread.
I had a quick look at Qd4/Ra4, but it's too slow to pull off. Black wipes through white's position before we have a chance to get this organised. It's too bad, because Rb4 would be a nice move to be able to play at some point.
Anywa,

27. Rfc1

r . . . . . k . *
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . . . b P P .
. q P . B . . .
. . . Q . . . P
R . R . . . K .

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Future plans for white: Chase away black queen, resurrect undead bishop (aka, pawn e3). Assuming 27... Rb8, I propose something along the lines of 28 Ra2 (to prevent Qb2), followed by Bd4/c4/Rb2. Black can take the c4 pawn, but we can probably recapture after chasing away the queen. This will need to be checked thoroughly first though, and it won't help much in reviving the bishop. Maybe something can be done with the fact that after Rb8 the rooks are on the same (black) diagonal, but that requires opening up the position with f5 (quite a bit better in that case than it was at this move, actually) but at best that gives bishop+pawn for a rook (which is a good exchange, but probably not as good as it would otherwise be), or it allows black to completely lock the white pawns into place on the dark squares (which is what I'd do if I were black) so it's probably not a realistic idea.

Yes, Rb8 looks very natural to play now. We will control b vertical, which will give our queen more freedom and more protection. But I have a feeling that it is dead end trying to break through on queen side. The real action will be on the king side, where they hide their soft and valnerable king.

I still should think more about the possibilities, but right now I like either Kh7 or f5. After Kh7 followed by Rg8 we may be able to develop a very dangerous direct attack on their king. I'm still not sure if they can defend. With king-side action we should also be careful and not let them trap our queen.

Alternative plan is immediate f5, opening the game and then it will go very fast. I also don't know if they can defend in that case. So let me think just a bit more.. Black team, please contribute to the analysis or suggest other plans.

EDIT:
No, the immediate king-side attack does not seem to work. Too bad, it was so promising, but it seems white can defend in all lines.. In the absense of other ideas, I guess we will take natural route and see what happens next.. We may still try to open the king-side a move or two later.

27... Rb8

. r . . . . k .
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . . . b P P .
. q P . B . . .
. . . Q . . . P
R . R . . . K . *

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EDIT: OK, I didn't notice our bishop

baaaaaah...

Very simplistic line of reasoning: 28... Qb2 would be annoying, so play 28 Ra2 to prevent that.
I don't see that it does anything constructive one move further down the line, mostly because I'm having trouble finding a good consistent plan for white. But at least there's a move to consider.

sounds good to me. Also creates the Rb2 scare which is a nice position indeed.

Yes, except that we need another piece looking at b2 than we do now. And that I don't quite see.

Ah right ofcourse

Hm, if we play Ra2 and they do Bb1 then i think we are screwed. So we should find a move for now that will prevent both Qb2 and Bb1.

What about Qa2 to prepare for queens exchange?

Hmm... yes, you're right.

Well, Bb1 does nothing unless we play Ra2.

We don't want to exchange queens if we can possibly avoid it.

Are you guys still playing this?

Ok, so maybe we could advance the c pawn to make way for our queen to rush over to a5.

edit:

More or less.:P (sometimes in between the overall motivation(i can only speak for myself though) was/is a little low)

That still allows for Qb2, which would be rather annoying. I'm not sure what to do...

I wouldnt mind a queen trade so much, their queen is much more developed then ours.

Even if after playing Ra2 black plays Bb1, then white's response Rb2 seems to be making things quite OK (although a6 loses support in this case).

I vote Qa2.

I also vote for Qa2, it is our best option now. The worst that can happen is a queens exchange.

You mean, apart from Qxb2 winning a rook?

As for why I don't like Qa2 (not saying I have a better idea, I don't have the time to search for one right now): white's pieces don't work together very well; the bishop is very bad. Exchanging queens does not help that situation. On the conterary, it means white has one piece less to do useful things with, while black's position does not become worse by exchanging queens. In other words, simplifying the game is to black's advantage, not white's.
But if you want a more tactical (rather than strategical) reason to not play Qa2: it doesn't actually do anything:
28 Qa2 Qb2!.
White probably doesn't want 29 Qxb2 Rxb2 and black takes the second row. At the same time, the white queen is forced to remain on a2 because of the threat Qg2, while the rook on a1 is locked into position to protect the queen.

It's a difficult position. I'd start looking at things starting with 28. Bf2 Qb2 29. Qd4.

Well, yes, apart from this. Sorry, I've missed the rook at b8, a bit.

It does something: currently, after our queen is out of the way and their queen would move from b2 to g2 we would be checkmate.
If they should do Qb2 after our 28 Qa2 and we pick it, they will take revenge with a rook and a rook from b2 to g2 we would not be checkmate.

It does nothing. Specifically, it does nothing against Qb2, which was the point. Black can play it regardless of wether we do Qa2 or not.

It makes no difference if our queen is on d2 or a2 for that.

Oh, great, it's not checkmate!
Forgive my sarcasm, but it hardly makes the position better. If black can secure control of the second line, he has a very easy time mopping up what remains of white's position.
I resuggest Bf2.

I disagree. If they do Qb2, we will exchange queens and that will make our position way better(not than theirs but better than our current position) because a rook on b2 is not a threat to us, while a queen is.
I still vote for Qa2 and i suggest we exchange queens, but only if they do Qb2 of course. If they don't do Qb2, we might want to push the c pawn or if they answer with Bb1, we can pick it and do the queens exchange on b1.

Hi White team! If you can't come to an agreement, I believe Evert's plan should be taken, because the last time when there was disagreement, Evert allowed Dennis play his way, while not liking that plan at all. Just 2 cents.

Your 2 cents are biased by the fact that you are on the black team and you want to win the game. I think that with Qa2 we can effectively prevent that from happening, while Bf2 does not improve our position at all (now), it will only give black time to line up both rooks on b, which I don't want them to do.
I think we are better off with their queen gone and it's not a big loss for us that ours will also die.
I yet again vote for Qa2.

Huh, Bf2 is about the best thing you could do to improve your position. Also exchanging the queens is what makes doubling the rooks a lot faster. But maybe I shouldn't be helping your team anyways

And I repeat what I said above and veto Qa2, unless you can provide a concrete variation showing Qa2 being better than Bf2 (and no, allowing a black rook on the second row does not constitute a better position).
As I said already, Qa2 does nothing to prevent Qb2, which is the point of what we wanted to do. And if you intend to play Qxb2, well, there's no reason to waste time playing Qa2 first, because we can already do that from our current position.

What does Qa2 do to help and what does it do for us that the queen does not do right now?

For some reason, i missed that we have a pawn on a6 which already prevents black from getting both rooks to the b column.

I fail to see how that would force a queens exchange now.

It practically will force a queens exchange and gives us control (as in we can predict what will happen next) of the game. It will be to our advantage because their queen is dangerous, while their rook isn't.
If we don't force the queens exchange now, they can move their queen to c4 (that locks up the situation even more), which steals us the chance to advance the c pawn and eventually when they take it back with their d pawn, we then miss the chance to scare away their bishop with our rook from c1.

Yes it does. Their rook doesn't post a threat there. Their queen does and with their queen gone they practically lose every chance to win the game. You said yourself that we should make them sweat and work hard for that point. Bf2 hardly makes them sweat, it only steals us some precious chances as described above.

Not after Bf2.

How many times to I have to repeat it? We don't want to exchange pieces. The more pieces we exchange, the easier black's job becomes.

Being able to predict what happens next in no way implies an advantage. I've played games where I could predict my opponent's moves ten moves in advance and still be powerless to stop him.

Just how much do you know about the danger of allowing enemy rooks on your second row?

If all their queen does is block a pawn of ours, then it's really a badly placed queen. While c4 is a plan for white, I'm not sure how it's going to accomplish much in the sense that it's crucial to play. Black can happily ignore the pawn and wait for white to capture on d5, after which black recaptures with his c or e pawn, further securing his bishop and creating a free pawn in the process. In other words, c4 is only good if black plays dxc4, which doesn't seem likely.

You're joking. The first thing you try to do in a rook ending is to secure your rooks on the enemy second line. Which is exactly what you're proposing we do.

Yes, we should. We seem to disagree on wether or not exchanging pieces is making it harder for black or not (it doesn't).

It gets that bishop to do something useful (ie, block the second row after a possible Qb2), and it prepares it for the possibility of playing it elsewhere. Right now, that bishop might as well not be there, because it doesn't do anything useful.

Honestly Ra2 looks like a rather stupid move. It doesn't stop the queen from moving to b2 at all. And Bb1 totaly fucks us up...

Oh, I forgot that white team has also Dustin! It seems you will have to help your team to decide what to do. Their main debate is about Qa2 (Dennis) vs Bf2 (Evert). Of course if you will suggest another move it will become even more hard to decide.

I simply want to prevent the game from stucking here. Honestly I don't know what move is best for you now.

Hello people, sorry if i wasn't around for some time but i had an internet blackout for 20 days, i'm back now though. (and i'll have a lot of free time since i ripped my leg muscle...)

How did that happen? Will it heal or are you crippled forever from now on?
[edit] Oh and welcome back!:)

During a race, i heard like a knife inside the leg and then i fell
The good news is that in a few days i should be able to walk and in a month i should be able to run again.

[edit]
Whoah, i hope i didn't kill the thread with my return!

Welcome back, FMC! I'm sure you will be fine. I had twisted joints and broken bones, but now I enjoy climbing as much as before. White team can't agree on a move, I just hope they will find a compromise, or convince each other, or decide by voting if nothing works..

People have until tomorrow-ish to convince me, with a concrete variation (ie, something other than `that move sucks and Qa2 is much better because black gets a rook on b2') that Bf2 is not good.

Evert has until tomorrow-ish to convince me that Ra2 is worth anything

Eh?
28. Ra2? was already discarded because of 28... Bb1!.

Ra2 is completely out of question.

I'm too tired to repeat everything i said to support Qa2 as i got the impression that it is not understood correctly anyway.

Read my last few posts again.
On top of that: with our bishop on f2 and their queen on c4, our kings movement possibilities equal 0.(that in itself is not the problem though)
The problem is: What would we move then? (after Bf2, Qc4)
We are running out of pieces that we can safely move to do any good(putting pressure on them).

Now we have the chance to get rid of the queens and since theirs is so much stronger this is good.
Now i repeat again(i hate to do so) that their rook on b2 will be no danger to us and i don't want to hear those silly "the first thing you do in a rook ending...blah blah" comments again, because that situation simply does not apply here.(you might forget that we will still have both rooks on line one after the controlled queens exchange and that they have no option to set us checkmate with the rook and the bishop in the current setup of the board)

I vote again for Qa2 and i disagree with Bf2.

I understood what you said, I just don't think it makes sense.

My plan would be to try to double our rooks, chase away their queen. 29. Ra3 and 30. Rca1 probably won't work, but maybe 29. Qd1 and 30. Ra4 can be attempted (the problem will be black playing Qd3 to exchange queens).

Now who was complaining about not being understood? Ok, tell me, how do you propose to get that black rook off our second line again? Before black gets his second rook on there?

Why is that?

Don't be daft. Whoever said anything about checkmate? The problem is that our rooks don't do anything particularly useful in the resulting position, and our king cannot get out because their rook is blocking our second row. That's why we don't want to exchange queens in that position: the resulting endgame is clearly worse for white and easier to win for black than a position that isn't as simplified.

So that does not prevent them from getting their rook to b2 either and queens will probably get exchanged as well.

We are making progress...
Now i think that it doesn't matter at all if we move Qa2 or Bf2 as it will turn out to almost the same resulting situation.

We can either move any of { Qa2, Bf2 }(i don't care anymore which one) now or we could look for something real clever...;D

Bf2 doesnt actually do anything... You're not much of an activist Evert .

I'd say as to the row 2 problem, run Qa2, and if they do Qb2 then return with either Bd2 or Bf2. Hows that for a compromise?

It blocks the second row, in particular g2 from attack from other pieces that may enter through b2. It's a defensive move in that sense.
Which, I might add, would not have been nescessary if people hadn't blindly rushed all the kingside pawns out to the front line.

That's still assuming we want to exchange queens. We don't.

We can't let the thread just die after the game has already lasted that long.
I guess Evert hasn't read my previous post, in which i said that Qa2 or Bf2 doesn't make a difference anymore to me, so for the sake of getting this game back on track, i move it now:

28. Bf2

. r . . . . k . *
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . . . b P P .
. q P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . P
R . R . . . K .

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Very cool, thanks Dennis! Obviously I had enough time to prepare to every possible white's move so I think we will be really good with Qc4 now. (As they noted too).

This move takes queen away from our rook's line. Why this is good - it means that as soon as their queen moves away from second row we will invade with Rb2, so their queen is stuck there on 2-nd rank. Another point is that we will have possible good move Rb3, attacking the b3 pawn and letting our queen re-group to b5 to be behind that rook, in case we will need that.

Queen at c4 will block pawn c3, which is good. Not that we are afraid of them moving c3-c4, but just we are hoping to grab those weak pawns for free, not to exchange them with ours. And for this our queen at c4 will be well placed too - it will attack all their queen-side pawns from there. Pawns don't matter too much here though. What matters is that we are trying to increase mobility of our pieces, while they will hopefully remain tied to defend their king.

There is one more reason why our queen at c4 will be disturbing for white: possibility of our attack through the white squares. Something like Bf3, Qe4, Bh1, Qg2# It's easy to defend of course, but they will have to think about it. (And this is only most obvious of the possibilities).

If there are any alternative plans, let's discuss them too.

Hey! wtf! I never agreed to that move! I specifically disagreed. Thats possibly the studiest move we could make!

Yes we do! Jesus why wouldnt we want to exchange queens? That would be perfect for us at this point in the game! You're just being conservative and hugging the queen too much.

I was going to suggest Qd1 but your line of reasoning is too strong ... right now i'm feeling more like the English Queen: veto power but nothing more

So ok for Qc4

. r . . . . k .
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . . .
. . q . b P P .
. . P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . P
R . R . . . K .*

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Ok now i'm just really mad.

Why? Have you missed the line of reasoning above in which it became obvious that it doesn't make a difference?;)

Going on with Everts plan, i suggest Qd1 to prepare for Ra4.

Yes I did, at least the logic in it. If we had done Qa2 they wouldnt not have been able to make the move they did.

Dustin, there were 5 days of silence in this thread before Dennis moved. I think you could have used that time to explain your view to your team-mates. Also since Evert and Dennis both were OK with Bf2, it was a majority decision. So stop crying and help your team with some good positive ideas instead.

So... any votes against Qd1?

[append]
In case my teammates feel ignored. I just find it boring to whine about previous moves and all i want is this game going on, so it can eventually be finished with a draw or a victory for us.;D

I was thinking of Rd1, which makes it harder for black to play Qd3. The disadvantage to that is black has time to play Rb3.
I agree Ra4 is the correct plan, but after 29. Qd1 Qd3, it's not very effective (in other words, Qd1 doesn't look like it helps in that sense).

I may have a bit of time over the weekend to look at this (I have a real chess game to play tonight, so I'm going to focus on preparing for that instead for now).

After Qd1 I'll look into Rb3, that's right. After Rd1 most natural looking is Bf3, but I did not think about it yet.

I nominate this thread as the longest living one on a.cc - and the longest chess game. Can we keep it going 4 more months and make it to 1 year? :>

It's complicated. Bf3 is a problem, even without playing Rd1. More problematic, in my mind, is the line with ... Qd3, Qxd3 Bxd3 followed by Bc4. That will be even harder to dislodge.
Unfortunately the plan 30. Ra2 fails on 30. ... Qd3, 31. c4 (try revive that bishop) Qf3!. But even the alternative 31. ... Qxd2, 32. Rxd2 dxc4, 33. Rxc4 Rb1+! isn't much of a position where white is concerned.

At the moment, the best I can come up with (which I don't think is that great) is to close up the position with 30. Qd4 Qxd4, 31. Bxd4. I don't like this because 1) it exchanges queens, 2) it dooms the bishop to life-long exile. The alternative cxd4 isn't very appealing because of Rb3, which allows black control over the third row.

Weren't you supposed to be pushing the pawns

I think we are on move 29 now.
If we did Qd4 now, i don't think that they will catch on to that threat. They are more likely to gently evade that puny provocation and may do Qe2, followed by Rb2(or even Qf3!!!).

The only and i repeat THE ONLY way we can prevent that from happening NOW is to move Qd1. (I regret that we haven't moved Qa2 the last time.>:( But well, moaning about that now is useless.)
And then Ra4 as the follow-up(as Evert said way above).
And i agree with Dustin: WE WANT TO EXCHANGE QUEENS.
Damn, that's the only reason i allowed Bf2 on the previous move, because with the correct follow up moves it would also lead to a queens exchange.
However, if after our Qd1, they'll go Qd3, we will not pick their queen first, instead we will advance the c pawn and let black pick it, so we can prepare to get rid of a pawn AND a bishop by using our rook.

And this time i will for sure not give in to anything else than Qd1. Hell would have to freeze over to make me do anything else.

Qd1 Qd3
c4 dxc4

Now you can't capture the pawn back as it's protected by the queen. If you do Qxd3 then capturing back with the bishop keeps both the pawn and bishop protected, and if you attempt to change a rook with those two, Rd8 spoils that. An open D vertical sounds pretty good for the black...

I said "...we will not pick their queen first...".
The idea is that they pick our queen on d1, we'll recapture it with a rook and that will spoil Rd8 for them.

Dennis, what you will do if we also will not pick your queen first? Also, do you have a plan after 29.Qd1 Rb3 ?

Great, i didn't see that. Now i hate it even more that we haven't moved Qa2 previously. That rules out Qd1 now.
...ugh...

What's that insane coldness coming from below? Hell must have just frozen over.;D:-/>:(

Hell, this thread is freezing too (bump!)

Yes, the atmosphere turned a little cold in here.
Hey teammates, let's just accept that our position is bad and that we can't do anything now or anytime in the future to turn the rudder around anymore. Let's just move anything (Qd4 even, if we can't think of anything else) to get the game going on.

g5

Fine with me.

What good does that do? f5 is at least useful in that it helps in activating the bishop.
My suggestion would be either Ra3 or Be3.

It's because you're pushing the pawns, remember?

It threatens their h pawn and it might clear the way for our bishop and queen to march in on that side, depending on blacks reaction of course. It might also prevent them from moving their rooks, because if we get the queen over there, they can't leave row 7 and 8 undefended.

I vote for g5. Good eye Dustin.

I vote against. It's completely pointless since white has no chance of getting a kingside attack anyway, and it only serves to further weaken white's position. Reckless pawn pushing is never a good strategy, and it's for a large part the reason the position is as bad as it is. Or wuld you seriously claim that White's position would be equally bad with pawns on g2 and f3 rather than g4 and f4?

Anyway, what do I care? I don't really have the time to debate this at length anyway.

I vote for g5.

Evert, relax already, what you got to lose at this point anyway?

I am relaxed. I just don't have the time to post lengthy explanations and detailed variations.

Awesome, so we agree on g5 then.

I think so, we have two votes for g5 and just one vote against it.

White team, you already agreed on a move, what't the problem now? Or is it because we are trying to break a record for the longest game ever?

Right.
29. g5

. r . . . . k .*
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . p
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b P . .
. . P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . P
R . R . . . K .

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- hxc5
fxc5 Nf5

Now if they decide to push pawns even further:
g6 Nh3
gxf7+ Rxf7
- Dg4+
leading to a checkmate (Kh1 Dg2X)

I wonder how they can prevent the Nh3...

My favorites would be either hxg5 or Kh7. After 29...hxg5 30.fxg5 g6 their pawn structure will be even worse than now, with one more valnerable pawn at e5. After 29...Kh7 30.gxh6 gxh6 we will have an open vertical for our rook to attack their king. So I'm OK with either of the two moves. I'll tell if I'll have any better idea (if it will be still our side to move).

Whose side are you on?

Black, of course. Since the beginning of the game.

I'm ok with Kh7, while i wouldn't like to exchange paws with hxg5, as that would broaden white's queen power. On a sidenote what would happen if we went h6-h5?

After some more thinking I prefer hxg5.. The reason: after 29...Kh7 30.gxh6 gxh6 31.Be3 they will be able to attack our pawn at h6 by moving f4-f5. I'm not sure they can gain advantage by that, but anyway placing an isolated pawn to the dark square (h6) can be risky. Especially so near to our king..

If instead we capture: 29...hxg5 30.fxg5 g6 - the position will become totally beautiful - three white pawns at c5, e5, and g5 make white's bishop totally useless, except for protecting those pawns. Our pawns are also on the same-colored squared with our bishop, but our bishop is in front of the pawns, which means our bishop is protected by pawns, while it still has freedom to do something useful.

If later we move our king to g7, we will be able to transfer one of our rooks to h8 and invade through the h vertical. White will have to move h2-h4 to prevent it. Another more simple idea is to double rooks on b-vertical, and move one of the rooks to b2. So, anyway, I vote for hxg5 now..

I don't know about that... 31. ... Rg8+!! looks pretty painful to me... (costs a queen after 32. Kf2 Rg2+). White is the last person who wants to open files on the kingside. If you ask me, that is... my teammates seem to think it's a great idea. When we do this again, can I at least have veto power over any reckless ill-considered pawn advances? None of the advances to f4, g4 (and then g5) and a6 were good moves.

It seems reasonable.

29. ... , hxg5

. r . . . . k .
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . .
. . P p P . p .
. . q . b P . .
. . P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . P
R . R . . . K .*

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I vote for recapturing that pawn.

Yes, otherwise we'll capture on f4 or move to g4, both are good for us.

I don't think there's any question that white has no better than fxg5, sad as that is.

As an aside, can someone explain what the rationale behind g5 was and why people thought it was a good idea?

30.) fxg5

. r . . . . k .*
p . r . . p p .
P . p . p . . .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . . .
. . P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . P
R . R . . . K .

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Why g5 was good? I already gave my view to that on the previous page.

You have got to be kidding.

I don't believe white can invade on the king-side - their bishop is useless with all their pawns on dark squares. And their rooks are bound to defending their pawns. Oppositely we now have h vertical for our attack. We can move our rook c7-c8-h8-h3 for example.. For that we will have to move g6 and Kg7 first, so it's quite long plan..

Another idea is to move Rb3 first to attack pawn c3 and to bind their rook at c1. If white replies with Qd4 we will move Qe2 - we don't want to exchange queens as long as it is possible. Later we can move Rc7-c8-b8, and then Rb3-b2 and Rb8-b3, or something like that.

What do you think, team-mates?

Probably white will advance h pawn now, if they want to be consistent with their previous plans.

Longest on-topic thread ever! I hope we'll see this thread living for a year .

I remember similar post in this thread about half a year ago

Team-mateS? Are you kidding?

I'd like to open the H vertical, so i vote for g7-g6

I thought we also have Flad?

Anyway, I don't see any problems with g6 so let's move it.

30... g6

. r . . . . k .
p . r . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . . .
. . P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . P
R . R . . . K . *

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Now the king-side is blocked, which means they can't do anything, but we still can infiltrate their camp through the h line.

We could get our queen to f4 and our bishop to h4 now.
We might also try to force a queens exchange by moving our queen to d4, so that our king gets some freedom in movement.
Another idea would be to advance the h pawn to h4 to prevent a rook invasion from there(since the pawn on h4 would be protected by our bishop).

edit: I vote against queens exchange.:)

Back from amsterdam in time to revive the thread?

Ok, i vote for pawn to h4 and if nobody objects within the next 24 hours, I will move that.

Is there any point in me saying what I think about h4?

How should i know? If you don't say it we'll never know, so far i don't take that as a veto to h4.;)
And as long as you don't bring up a different idea, your 80%-rhethorical question is just counterconstructive.
You already had five days to think about something, so the countdown to move h4 is still running.
I want this game to get finished eventually.

Well, the entire plan of pushing pawns on the kingside was wrong to begin with, h4 being no different in that regard. The difference is that at this point, the position is so horrible that it hardly matter if you play h4 or not.

Well time is up, i disagree to "the position is so horrible" and since it doesn't matter for you Evert, i'm moving the pawn to h4.
Next up we might want to look into getting the queen to f4, the rook to f1 and the bishop to e1, but that will depend on which side black decides to put a rook to.

31... h2-h4

. r . . . . k . *
p . r . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . . P
. . P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . .
R . R . . . K .

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I wasn't involved in the game too much, but I have to agree with Evert - the only thing white king needs at the moment is a big "Welcome" sign. By moving kingside pawns white left king without any blockers, which blockers are now helping to defend black king - now the only white piece that has any chances to get to black king is the queen and even it can't do it because it's now key defense element now.

Read a chess book and then comment again.

I fail to see any black pieces that are dangerous to our king.

They don't have that many move options now. Let's check it:

option: black advances f pawn to line 6
our countermeasure: bishop to d4
(then if they pick either pawn we will repick it with bishop or queen)

option: black advances f pawn to line 5
our countermeasure: en passent kill it away with our g pawn

option: they move their queen or rook
I don't see any place in which a movement of their queen or rook could pose a threat to our king. (except "check" moves that will immediately puff away by capturing the dangerous piece)

[append]
option: they move their king to make way for a rook to get to h
our countermeasure: queen to f4, preparing for another queen move to f6 to sweat the king away

The position is not hopeless because of the concrete tactical threads black has, it is hopeless because of the many strategic options black has. By their very nature these cannot be pinned down to a single sequence of moves that can be calculated easily, it much more long term than that.
Black can put pressure on the kingside with rooks on the h file. Ok, so the bishop protects h4 now. Do you seriously think black cannot sacrifice a rook to open up that file after he's prepared? I think he probably can. Either way, it's something white needs to consider when he makes a move. You say Bd4 to f6 - but by moving away the bishop the h-file pawn loses its support, leaving it vulnerable. The bishop is not free to do with whatever we want.
Black can put pressure on the queenside with Rb3. Not a big problem now, you say? No, it isn't, but again, it's something that white needs to consider and keep paying attention to because there may come a point where it does become dangerous.

Every single thread white can defend against. However, there are many more threads that white needs to at least keep an eye on. Black can bide his time, increase pressure here, then switch his attack there. At some time there will come a point where white simply cannot defend all his weaknesses as well as he should and the defence will break down.

Now do you finally see what I mean when I say the position is hopeless?

If this were a real match and I were black, I would feel fairly secure that I'm going to win.

I think Nf5 - Nh3 - Qg4+ (leading to a checkmate) sounds pretty good... Their response would be Qe3, but is that enough? After Nb4 I don't think so...

That's a Bishop, not a Knight.

Whoops, I always forget the names in the english notation...

Bf5 - Bh3 - Qg4+

I only see that the position is tricky and that we must pay close attention to what we move and in which order. I do see that white also has many strategic options, just think the move options I listed above a little further and it becomes visible that the positions in which we might have bishop and/or queen then will be fortunate, because they can be used to disturb blacks attack plans, as they will threaten fields that black will have to move to, if they want to have a raid on our king. Also we might get options to disturb them by putting them into check, spoiling their movement possibilities even further. And when they are in check they lose a move, which we can use to build up our attack group.
Maybe our disagreement results from the fact that you are thinking in terms of passive defense, while i think in terms of a defense by attacking and disturbing all of their possible attack patterns?
I wouldn't call the position hopeless and if I was black I would not think that I'd win the game easily. You said for yourself that we shall make them work and sweat for that point and that's what we're doing right now.

This plan can be countered by putting whites bishop to d4 to block off the black queen. Or by using the white queen on d4 for the same effect.
I'm not sure though, which one is better. Using the bishop would leave the h pawn undefended, but only temporarily, as it can be protected again in a follow up move by putting the queen to h2.

[append]
Other expressions I would use to describe our position would be: "challenging" and "interesting" but please don't call it hopeless or horrible again, because our team morale seems to be low enough already without that. What we need here is optimism and a strong will to survive, no matter how stupid that might sound.

After which black will happily play Qe2.

Fladimir, please read my post fully, before commenting. I did see and say that the h pawn would be undefended and i also said this would only be temporarily.
You have a point with blacks Qe2 though, so it would indeed be best to use the bishop for blocking off and then reprotect the h pawn(like i already said) with the queen on h2.

[edit]Ah, you edited.

If we double our rooks in the H vertical, what can you do then?

Damn straight. And the last thing white should do (should have done) is open up more lines to his own king.

White has a bad bishop, a weak pawn on c3, an open file that is owned by black and poor defence around his king. Apart from looking what white might have, have you looked at what black does have? In your plans have you at all considered what options black has and what he can do to counter any of teh attacks you see for white? I don't think you have.

Your countering single threads. But as I said before, that is not enough: white can probably counter against any single thread, but white will not be able to keep defending against all of them.

Black can afford to take his time to prepare: there's nothing white can do anyway.

Our what?

You mean, defence by suicide? Because that's what it looks like to me. By proper defence in this position, I mean not budging one inch, not creating any more weaknesses than we already have. Do a headcount: how many pieces does white have protecting weak points? How many does black have?

Hopeless? Maybe not completely hopeless, but black will need to really screw up badly.

Who said anything about winning easily? If I were black in that position, I'd be confident that I can wear down white's defences if I just keep the pressure on and keep looking for new weaknesses.

Believe me, it isn't. You're just creating more weak points in white's position with moves that look good when you look a move or two ahead, but turn out to be wrong five or six moves (or more) ahead.

Do you see what I'm talking about? Yes, you can counter this one thread. It leaves something else undefended, but never mind, we can defend that again later. Once you start thinking like that, alarm bells should go off that something is terribly wrong with your position, because if you do not pay attention for an instant or don't move the correct piece at the right time, you suddenly find yourself with a position where you have a weakness that you can no longer defend.

I wouldn't call it interesting.

It is horrible. One of the important things about chess is accurately judging a position. If it's horrible, then that's what it is and euphemisms don't help at all. Having made that determination, one has to decide on how to react to that. There are three reactions:
1) Hang your head, tug tail between your legs and weep. You lose very quickly.
2) Do a desperate all-or-nothing charge and hope your opponent will be overwhelmed. You normally still lose just as quickly.
3) Batten down the hatches and lock up. Shift your weight and don't budge an inch without making them work for it. This becomes a battle of stamina that you may very well still lose, but if you hold out longer than your oponent, then you may escape with a draw.
What I proposed to do was 3, what you're doing is 2. Having chosen 2, there is no going back to do 3, so you must continue with 2.

That's tough for the team, but if it can't appreciate an honest evaluation of the position, then how is it going to play?

What we need is the realism to see the position for what it is and make sensible moves. Optimism is a dangerous thing in this case because it leads you to overestimate your own chances, which will cause you to make a mistake and lose much more quickly than you had to.

DB, after the moves you suggested the board could look like this. What could white do next? Black's going to move Rh7 and Rbh8

I'd seriously consider Rb2 in the position you linked to (didn't look much beyond Qxb2 Rxh4 though), but I guess you would have moved the rook from b8 to h8, right?

Yeah, that sounds good, too. I just wanted to play for sure (there's really not much that white could do to prevent Rxh4 anyways...)

I don't see any immediate win yet, but it looks promising. White has too many weak points, they should eventually have troubles defending them all. But who knows, may be they'll manage to defend everything..

We should continue to increase the pressure on both flanks. On queen side it would be Rb3, on king side it would be Kg7. We could also move Rc7-c8, which is useful for both plans - it can go on b8 or on h8 later.

If we move Bf5 now: After 31...Bf5 32.Bd4 Kg7 white will have trouble defending pawn h4. So they will probably move 32.Qd4 which we reply by 32...Qe2. (because we don't want to exchange queens). At that point I think they have only move 32.Re1. Then if we move 32...Qf3, they move 33.Re3, and then I am not sure how we should progress. We will probably have to move 33...Qh5 which is not good because the queen will be locked there and we will not be able to take the pawn h4, protected by the bishop. So I don't like playing Bf5 now, unless someone has a good plan what to do after 31...Bf5 32.Qd4 Qe2 33.Re1.

So my main alternatives are either 31...Rb3, 31...Rcc8, or 31...Kg7. Any preferences or better plans? FMC? Flad?

If you promise to counter 31...f6 with 32.Bd4, I'll move f6 in a moment.. But I'm afraid you will change your mind and capture the pawn instead.

No not just that, please look again. Countering those threats as I listed them in my (option,countermeasure)-post on the previous page always also prepares for an attack on vital black pieces, mainly the rooks and also aims on disturbing their king.

Is Evert implying that my evaluation of the situation is dishonest?
We are playing like we've done all the time, by taking votes on what to move. With the problem that this is difficult now, because it seems that Dustin has completely decided to ignore this game, and since our(Everts and mine) thinking is so different in almost every way, that taking votes doesn't do any good. It only puts more tension to everyone and wastes our energy, asking ourselves "Why the hell does he not SEE it?"
What do the black team members think?

Should we fork the game? I don't feel like the discussion between me and Evert is leading anywhere, because we both are blind towards the respective other ones way of playing chess.:-/
Sure Evert has much more experience in chess but that doesn't automatically make my view of the situation invalid and I have the impression that I'm the only one left actively thinking about moves and tactics here, while Evert is always just saying this or that is not good but has completely stopped to make suggestions himself.
Not saying that i don't appreciate that feedback, because it helps us staying alert.

Sorry Evert, I don't mean to piss you off or appear stubborn or anything, but I think all we can do here is to agree to disagree.
And next time(if any) we make a TeamChess, we should pick an executive dictator(!) for each team that will have the last word in every decision and also maybe three members per team is not a good number, because it has the drawback that if one member drops out, the remaining ones will have problems to come to an agreement, especially when their way of analyzing, looking and playing is so unfortunately different like it is the case here.

Fladimir:
In that position you show, the threat of your original plan of putting us into check with the queen is gone again, because your bishop is back in his original position.
We could just move our bishop back to its previous position then, having two pieces defend the h pawn and in case you were going to get a rook on line two then that rook would be blocked off by our bishop and if you take that bishop with that same rook, it would get recaptured with the queen and then our h pawn would still be protected by the queen.

[Note since posts are getting so long that there might be other posts inbetween: This post was written after Fladimirs question on what to do in the theoretical setup of the board after a previously discussed sequence of moves.]

I'm not going to make any more posts now, until the black team has moved, because i think everything has already been said at this point.

In that case, we're more than happy to move Bf5 and exchange your bishop and queen with our rooks.

I'm saying it's wrong and too optimistic. I think you want to see it in a more optimistic light than it is and in that sense the evaluation is dishonest.

That is indeed what I'm thinking.

No. I'm not going to spend time trying to defend the position as it is now.

Where should it lead? It's a discussion on the evaluation of the position and the proper strategy to emply in defending it.

No, but honestly, I wouldn't mind at least getting the impression that I'm being listened to when I take the effort of explaining why some strategies are bad or why certain moves were wrong.

It's not white to move for one thing. For another, I said a while back that advancing pawns on the kingside was a bad idea. What do you want me to suggest in this position?

I don't think team chess in this sense makes much sense, unless the players on one team are of roughly the same playing strength. As it stands, I can propse a tacktic, make a few moves based on that idea - and then someone else decides to make a couple of moves that don't fit into the previous plan, which creates a position in which none of the pieces are working together properly, none of the threads are properly defended and none of the weaknesses are properly exploited. It has the same effect as playing without a plan, which is worse by far than playing with a bad plan (which is why I pulled out a while back and why I said that having chosen for a head-over-heels rush on the kingside, you have to stick to it because if you don't you've just created a weakness without even a ghost of compensation).
Taking a look at black, Kirr seems to have made most of the moves and done most of the proposals. This gives a consistency to black's game that white's game lacks.

There are alternatives for doing a team-based chess though. I don't know the term in English, but the Dutch name for what I have in mind is `doorgeef schaak'. Take a team of two against two (can be more on each team, but they must be the same size). One of them plays black against a member of the other team, one plays white. Whenever you capture a piece, you pass it to your teammate (or to the right if there is more than two players on each team), who may insert the piece into the game instead of doing a move. A few rules apply: 1) The piece cannot be inserted with check, 2) Pawns cannot be put on the first or eight rows, 3) You cannot insert a piece in the same move you received it in (effectively, you cannot delay playing a move until your partner passes you that queen), 4) Pawns always promote to queens (for simplicity) and revert to pawns when captured.

For this variation, form teams of roughly equal strength and have players of similar strength play eachother directly.

Could you be any more egotistical and conceded?

Just in case you were curious (which you're not, but I'm going to tell you anyway) I've read numerous chess books and am familiar with lots of strategies.

BTW, black, its your turn.

[edit]
You know I was just going to leave it at that. Evert you're getting way into it so I thought I would be the bigger man and just leave it be. But you know what, I changed my mind.

Evert your strategy sucks. Whats a pain in the ass about you is all you see is your strategy. And it sucks.

You get it in your head that some move is the golden move and then can't all mad and argumentative and defensive about your stupid move and wont listen to anything anybody else has to say. And then we have to 'prove' it to you that our move is better then yours.

You're a freakin hypocrite.

Dennis and I can go through possible moves and strategies and be right or wrong but actually benefit from having talked to each other about it. All you want to do is play the game by yourself. What use is that? The point of team chess is to work together to figure out your moves. A skill which you seriously lack.

Honestly, who gives a shit if your move is slightly better then their move, or if you saw something they didn't see? If you see something they didn't see then TELL THEM and help the logic progress farther. Winning about how your always right and everyone else in the world is always wrong and how you've read so many chess books and your a chess master and we all suck at chess doesn't help anything.

Its just retarded and stupid.

You've turned a game of chess into a bitch fight.

Alright, now I've complained too much and am going to start a flame war. So I'll resign from this game instead of causing shit loads of arguments and halting the game. I'm gonna delete the thread. If for some reason Evert changes his mind about how he wants to treat the game or he leaves, private message me to come back and i will.

Good Game.

hum.. hum... King to g7?

Sure!

Yeah!

31. ..., Kg7

. r . . . . . .
p . r . . p k .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . . P
. . P . . . . .
. . . Q . B . .
R . R . . . K .*

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I would like to put the queen to f4, as already said on the previous page.
Why?
Because it prepares to get the queen to f6.
They can prevent that by moving the bishop, in which case we can make a queens exchange, or they can prevent it by moving a pawn, which we could take after both of that pawns movement possibilities.

As Dustin said he doesn't want to play anymore and Evert said he doesn't want to defend the situation... I'm not sure if that means that I can just move.
Am I allowed to just move?

Dennis, I think we will not try to prevent your queen from coming to f6. It is harmless there - our king will simply step to h7 or g8. We then can lock your queen at f6 by moving our bishop to f5. Your queen alone can't do any harm at f6, and with that queen out of the picture our pieces will feel much more free.

Good point, though:
I would only want to put the queen to f6, if the king stayed on g7. If you just move it away after queen to f4, there'd be no reason to proceed to f6 immediately, so you wouldn't be able to lock the queen then. And if you only move the king away after the queen already is on f6, then you can't lock it either because I can just put it back to f4 then.
But thanks for pointing the lock possibilty out, because I didn't see that.

[append]
Hm, though even If you locked the queen on f6:
Your king on h7 would spoil the plan of doubling your rooks on h.
Your king on g8 would also spoil that plan or even if you already had put one rook to h8 then, I could proceed the queen to d8, putting the king into check and after that pick away the other rook.
So there is some danger in whites queen coming to f6.

Dennis, I have the real chess board with this position right here. This game is not a blitz, I can think for days about the next move. Do you think I will miss a two-move combination where we lose a rook? I calculate for about 8-10 moves ahead before moving, generally, and that does not include common sense and strategic points. So please give me a favor and don't imagine I will blunder a rook. If you see that you can capture our rook for nothing - it just means we will not continue to that variation.

Well of course everything is possible and people blunder in correspondance chess too, but saying like "I'll move here, you there, and I'll take your rook" just shows that you don't have slightest bit of respect to your opponent. Do you think I have chess board in my avatar for nothing?

Cool down, I didn't mean to be disrespectful, never. If you feel that way then you are really reading my posts with wrong (angry? or arrogant?) intonation.:-/
I too have a real chess board setup next to my pc, which is starting to collect dust already, because it sits there for several months already and I think about it every day and even move it around here and there and play against myself, playing black and stuff...
All I wanted to say is that locking our queen on f6 isn't the end to everything and that I still think it would be good for white under certain circumstances.
That of course depends on what you do next and where you move your king or rooks.

I am well aware of the fact that you are probably very intensively into chess and that you won't do anything totally stupid, so if you do anything after queen to f4 that would spoil the plan that I mentioned, we (or I, since I'm not sure if my teammates are still around) would also not continue into that direction.
So what's the point?
I don't disrespect you at all. I'm just publicly thinking about moves.
Why does everyone always seem to take that as a personal attack towards his chess-mastery?
I really don't understand that and I'm very unhappy about it. People always get me wrong, even If I stay totally neutral in my descriptions of my thoughts. It's pulling me down.

And I never said "I move this and that and then I will...". I use words like "could" for a reason, since imho there is rarely anything SURE to happen here.

I feel that this thread is really more about politics and psycho-warfare than about chess and I have to say I HATE that it turned into that direction.:(

Dennis, sorry if I sounded unhappy. I'm far from that. Just it keeps surprising me that you keep discussing variations where we lose rook or queen as some kind of real possibility. That's all I wanted to point out, really. Actually I was also sad about recent battles in white team, you should work together to find better moves, not arguing about the past.

About the plan to move to f6, I think if you move to f4 we will not remove the king immediately, but do something more active instead. I don't know yet what (or may be I don't want to say yet). Anyway it's too bad you now know about the trap, I'll have to think something new now.

Evert's idea to do that kind of team chess (with passing captured pieces to teammates) is good too. I played that in the past, it is lot of fun actually. I'm just not sure if it will be easy to handle in just one thread.

Pointing out the trap was indeed very nice of you Kirr, but I still play with the thought of walking into it nonetheless.:) (no really, I'm not joking or being sarcastic, if you promise to keep the king on g7 after white queen to f4 then I am likely(given that the way doesn't get blocked by something) to move to f6 afterwards. With the exception that if you do something, which I don't see, that would turn out alarmingly dangerous, then I would not.:-X So nothing is sure.)

The only thing that's keeping me from moving the queen to f4 now, is that I am still unsure if Everts comment that the situation is hopeless was final in his opinion and if he hasn't changed his mind in the meantime.
If he stays with his opinion and doesn't want to defend the situation anymore, then if nobody objects, I will just take full responsibility for everything that has possibly gone or will go wrong in this game and if white should lose this game, everybody may say it was entirely my fault.(please don't be too harsh though...)

If Evert should have changed his opinion and would like to defend the situtation again then I would like to fork the game and still play Qf4 to prevent further unnecessary arguing between us, because it's pulling us down.
Or in other words: I really want to try this, because I am very excited and curious about how the game is going to go on in that direction and I can't be convinced otherwise. (Call that stubborn if you want, blame all faults to me if you must, but please don't feel insulted or disrespected.)

No, I don't promise to keep king on g7. You have to take the risk. Also my team-mates may have some different idea, we will see and discuss what to do.

I waited a few days to see if the white "team" wanted to contribute something but since that's not the case, I will just go on playing the game now, without waiting or asking anymore, because the game has to go on.
If someone should think i'm not allowed to do so, the game should be considered forked then.:-/

32. Qf4

. r . . . . . .*
p . r . . p k .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b Q . P
. . P . . . . .
. . . . . B . .
R . R . . . K .

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I was thinking of either c7-b7 (and prepare rook attack on the other side), or b8-h8, i'd leave the king where it is for now.

Certainly we can't move 32...Rcb7 - it gives away the rook.

32...Rh8 is much better but in the line 32...Rh8 33.Qf6+ Kg8 34.Qd8+ Kg7 35.Qxc7 leaves us without a rook too. So we will have to move 34...Kh7, which kind of defeats the purpose of moving rook to h8.

I like the move 32...Rb2 now. It places the rook on the second row, closing on their king. After this move they will have to be very careful to not get checkmate. If they move 33.Qf6+ we just move 33...Kh7 and they can't do anything dangerous. If they go for our rook at c7 by 34.Qd8 they will get checkmate very fast after 34...Qe2

I don't know what i was thinking when i wrote my last post

Rb2 is indeed a slick move, Fladimir what do you think?

Sounds good, though they won't have hard time to trade the rook if they wanted...

How is that, how they can trade a rook? I thought it is beauty of this position - they can't exchange anything.

EDIT: OK, moving 32...Rb2 if there is no other discussion.

32...Rb2

. . . . . . . .
p . r . . p k .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b Q . P
. . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
R . R . . . K . *

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Without any discussion, (because the white team is dead obviously) i will continue to play. If I should be wrong and the white team is still around watching and should have any objections, then this game shall still be considered forked and i'm just continuing to play my forked version in that case.:-/

33 Qf6+

. . . . . . . . *
p . r . . p k .
P . p . p Q p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . . P
. . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
R . R . . . K . 

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Do whatever you want, I'm not interested in trying to defend that position (even if I didn't think it hopeless and I had the time, which I don't really). You know I disagree with the evaluation of the position, and hence the strategy. There's no sense in discussing moves if you cannot agree on those issues.

Oh, just a few more things,

Must be, in your words, my `weird way of thinking about chess'.

Oh, that's where you're wrong. Very wrong. Did it occur to you that I may have actually looked at the position before objecting to a certain cause of action?
Now tell me, if I propose a move and someone else proposes a move, then shouldn't there be discussion on why one of the two is better than the other one?

Oh, thanks for that. I won't reply to that, but I will remember you said that.

Where did anyone listen to me when I said (and explained) why advancing pawns is a bad idea, why we don't want a black rook on b2 and why we didn't want to exchange queens?

Who says I'm always right? I certainly didn't.

Well, I apologise for wording my criticism a bit harshly, but it would have helped if I at least had had the idea anyone was actually listening to what I was saying.

Ok, it's just a mather of retreat, but where?
Is there some specific point we should go to?

[EDIT]Wait a sec... am i missing something or our rook in c7 is doomed after Qd8, and it doesn't matter in which direction we move the king?

Hi everyone! I'm back from 2 weeks vacations. It's good the thread is still alive!

We have only one move now: 33...Kh7. Yes, the rook is doomed after 34.Qd8, but they can't do that because we then checkmate after 34...Qe2.

If we move our king to g8 or h8, they will move 34.Qd8 with check. It will not save them probably, but better not risk anyway. (Although I think we'll checkmate anyway after 33...Kg8 34.Qd8+ Kg7 35.Qxc7 Qe2).

Evert, I more or less share your `weird way of thinking about chess', so I understand your being upset about your team decisions. I still think team chess can work if there is discussion and peaceful and respectful atmosphere in a team. Though it then may take years to complete the game, if all members have to be convinced before making a move. May be we can try something different next time.

The only thing I disagree with you is about trading queens in current position (for about last 10 moves). You said a few times you like to avoid queen exchange, but I think it would be good for white. So I tried to avoid that exchange myself. Queen is our main attacking piece, without both queens white may hope to create some fortress structure. With queens we have too many attacking possibilities, which I think white queen does not compensate. I'm saying now because I think now white can't force queen exchange already.

Ok.

If you move the king to somewhere on line 8, I might move the queen to d8, but just to put you in check again, not to fulfill any strategy at all, because picking that rook is impossible without preventing your Qe2, even worse, I couldn't even move the queen back to f6 after that, because then you could still lock her out with the bishop.

I see only one line of moves in which that rook could fall safely and that's unlikely to happen: Kg8,Qd8+,Kh7,Qxc7,Qe2,Qxf7+

I've also played through numerous possibilites of advancing the h pawn after Kh7, but there is too high the risk that the white queen gets locked behind the bishop... so my "plan" is now to just move the queen back to f4, after your Kh7.

[P.S.:] Welcome back!:)

Yeah, this is not very likely to happen.

Yay!

OK, if there are no suggestions, shall we play 33...Kh7? We don't have any reasonable alternatives anyway.

33...Kh7

. . . . . . . .
p . r . . p . k
P . p . p Q p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . . P
. . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
R . R . . . K . *

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Moving her highness back then.

34. Qf4

. . . . . . . . *
p . r . . p . k
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b Q . P
. . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
R . R . . . K .

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Oh, it's quite possible that neither black nor white want to exchange queens, for different reasons.
Anyway, why I didn't like the queen exchange in a nutshell:
1) Black's queen is very annoying for white and certainly `better' than white's. In that sense, it makes sense to exchange the two (as one might exchange a bad bishop againt a good bishop). But:
2) White's pawn structure resembles a piece of Swiss cheese, the bishop is trapped behind its own pawns and has not much of a future to look forward to and white's rooks cannot become active because black controls the b-file and black's bishop cannot be budged from its place. In other words, white's queen is the only piece that white can hope to make active. For that reason, I wanted to keep the queen and try to find another way of chasing off black's queen (using the rooks). That may very well not have worked, but at least it's a consistent plan, and one I'd rather try than the end game that results after queen exchange: black has a clear plus there and no obvious weaknesses that white can exploit. All black has to do is sit on his advantage and push forward patiently until white finally cannot defend the position anymore. It may take tens of moves if white is on his guard and defends well, but it won't help if black does not make a serious mistake.
In other words, in that end game white has to work hard and be on his guard at all times while black can be a bit more sloppy as long as he doesn't make any big mistakes. It's not the sort of game I like to play (being white, I love it when I'm black) and it didn't seem like a good idea at the time.

Yeah, that was the only move.

Now we can finally start doing something active. Black's dream would be to bring another rook to the second rank too: Rc7-c8-b8-b2. Currently that rook is guarding pawn f7, so we have to protect it with the king first. So, I propose to move Kg8 now. Looks a bit erratic, I know, but I don't know how white is going to counter this plan.

I tried to find some tactics with the current attacking pieces - queen, rook and bishop, but it seems they still can defend.

Any thoughts?

Bringing the second rook on the second row will be all but easy but i agree it's the only reasonable choice; again i agree that the rook can't move until it's the only one defending that pawn.
I vote for kg8

OK, two for Kg8 and no other ideas, so it should be fine to move.

34...Kg8

. . . . . . k .
p . r . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b Q . P
. . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
R . R . . . K . *

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As this thread gets older it's reproduction rate dies down
White team where art thou?

Sorry, I am a bit busy working on version 1.0 of dcgg.

35 Qg4

. . . . . . k . *
p . r . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . Q P
. . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
R . R . . . K .

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Good! Black team, let's carry on with our plan? (35...Rc8)

One alternative may be to put our rook to d2, then d3. It looks like great place for our rook, but I'm not sure I am not missing something there. It is more tactical, may be they can force some exchange there, which we better avoud now.

Rc8 for me

OK, here we go!

35...Rc8

. . r . . . k .
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . Q P
. . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
R . R . . . K . *

FMC, "Chess for Allegroites" is down?

It's the link from a.cc thats broken, no idea why

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Update your sig.... there is no allegro.cc/go/ anymore.

it seems you have to post to update the sig...

[edit]Actually not
What should i do to update it?

[edit2]Nevermind, it works now

Bump! White to move.

36. Ra3

. . r . . . k . *
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . Q P
R . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
. . R . . . K .

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I'm for going on with our plan, with 36...Rcb8 now. I don't see how white can prevent us doubling our rooks on second row now, also we will have threat 37...Rb1 38.Rxb1 Rxb1+.

Yes, i think we should carry on the original plan of doubling the rooks.

36...Rcb8

. r . . . . k .
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q . b . Q P
R . P . . . . .
. r . . . B . .
. . R . . . K . *

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37. Bd4

. r . . . . k . *
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q B b . Q P
R . P . . . . .
. r . . . . . .
. . R . . . K . 

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Are you sure you want to do that?

Well, some people say that a queen equals a rook and a bishop. Myself - I'm not so sure. But black's rook and bishop are in such great positions that I'm not even sure if I'd trade after all... Of course the other rook is coming in soon as well.

EDIT: Now when I think of it, of course I'd trade! When the other rook is in, it's a checkmate pretty soon.

Actually, a queen is supposedly better. Be that as it may, a rook and a bishop is two pieces. Alternatively, you can see it as a queen against two rooks and a rook against a bishop. It's not so clear and there are a lot of pawns, most of which are stuck.
So for the material, no, I don't think it would be a good idea for black.

The only reason it would be tempting is that after Qe2/Rb2, it looks as if white will have a hard time avoiding the checkmate.

Queen is worth more than a rook and a bishop under normal circumstances, but in current positions I don't like this exchange. It's not that white can draw after it, just I will enjoy more having our rooks doubled at second row. After getting both rooks down to 2-nd row we will start harvesting things for free, probably. So propose to move Re2 now. (Not Rd2, because at d2 our rook can be disturbed by white rook or bishop). Next we will play Rbb2 and white will have trouble protecting f2 and g2.

EDIT: FMC, Flad, I also don't mind the exchange if you prefer that.

Well, if it doesnr lead to mate, then doubling the rooks will clearly be better. I'm still curious how it would play out though; I should put the position on a board and check.

If Fladimir agrees i'd continue with Re2

Ung, now the situation seems really almost hopeless. I played through quite a few different possibilities, even before making that last move and it always ends up in a checkmate, sooner or later. I think all I can do now is to delay that a little more but not for very long. Oh well, just continue to play, it should be over soon.

Re2 is fine for me

I wonder what would happen after Rg2.

EDIT: Probably just white queen for black rook and bishop exchange, so nothing really amazing.

37...Re2

. r . . . . k .
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q B b . Q P
R . P . . . . .
. . . . r . . .
. . R . . . K . *

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Rg2 wins, but I just wanted to show that our original long term plan works as well. If we move Rg2 white may say that they blundered. But with Re2 they have no excuse because this line is natural development of position of about 10 or 15 moves ago.

Time to sacrifice the queen. I have checked other possibilities but sacrificing the queen seems to promise the longest possible delay until the checkmate.
After black Qxe2, I'll move the bishop back to f2. (edit: or maybe rook to f1, edit2: or maybe not..)

38. Qxe2

. r . . . . k . *
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . q B b . . P
R . P . . . . .
. . . . Q . . .
. . R . . . K .

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Qxe2?

Sure.

38. ..., Qxe2

. r . . . . k .
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . . B b . . P
R . P . . . . .
. . . . q . . .
. . R . . . K .*

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39. pawn to c4

. r . . . . k . *
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . P B b . . P
R . . . . . . .
. . . . q . . .
. . R . . . K .

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[edit] Actually that was the stupidest move I could make. Now it's checkmate immediately.:(

For me you can take back the move, if you prefer to do so.

Nah, it's ok FMC. It is about time this game ends, so we can all move on with our lifes. Congratulations to you.

39...Qg2# Checkmate. Good game.

. r . . . . k .
p . . . . p . .
P . p . p . p .
. . P p P . P .
. . P B b . . P
R . . . . . . .
. . . . . . q .
. . R . . . K . *

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I think white's main mistake in this game were moves g4 and f4. I think the game was lost for white after those two moves - the attack on king side was impossible, and their king was left without protection. Also our bishop got great position at e4 after that, where it conrolled b1 and squares next to king, and where it could not be attacked. I think after g4 and f4 moves by white, black should be able to always win with the accurate play.

Good game anyway. So how many days it lasted, still less than a year?

EDIT

With other moves it's not much longer. For example: 39.Bf2 Qg4+ 40.Kf1 Bd3+ 41.Ke1 Qe2#.

Zomigosh, it's finally over?

gg

It's a prettier mate though

Thanks to all who played, especially to my teammates

Full list of moves of this epic game: (game started: 25-07-2005 ended: 16-06-2006)

 1. e4 
  ...Nf6
 2. e5
  ...Nd5
 3. Bc4
  ...Nb6
 4. Bb3
  ...d5
 5. d4
  ...Bf5
 6. a4
  ...Nc6
 7. Nf3
  ...Na5
 8. Nbd2
  ...e6
 9. c3
  ...Nxb3
10. Nxb3
  ...Bf8-e7
11. O-O (kingside)
  ...Nb6-d7
12. Qe2
  ...c6
13. a5
  ...h6
14. Ra4
  ...b5
15. Ra1
  ...Qc7
16. a6
  ...Qb6
17. Be3
  ...O-O (kingside)
18. Ne1
  ...Rfc8
19. Nd3
  ...b4
20. Ndc5
  ...bxc3
21. xc3
  ...Rc7
22. g4
  ...Bh7
23. f2-f4
  ...Nxc5
24. Nxc5
  ...Bxc5
25. d4xc5
  ...Qb3
26. Qd2
  ...Be4
27. Rfc1
  ...Rb8
28. Bf2
  ...Qc4
29. g5
  ...hxg5
30. fxg5
  ...g6
31. h2-h4
  ...Kg7
32. Qf4
  ...Rb2
33. Qf6+
  ...Kh7
34. Qf4
  ...Kg8
35. Qg4
  ...Rc8
36. Ra3
  ...Rcb8
37. Bd4
  ...Re2
38. Qxe2
  ...Qxe2
39. c4
  ...Qg2# (checkmate, black wins)

Someone should post an analysis of the game.

Aside,

O-O is always a kingside castling. Queenside castling is O-O-O.

Congratulations on having finaly brought this epic mammoth of a game to an end.

AE.

Hooray Hooray. Aye, an analyzation of the game would be fun. I'm not going to write one though.:P

Or we could just start a new game, here in the same thread to keep the tradition of checking for this thread going...:-X