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Metal lid on laptop is electric
torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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I just got a new laptop, an ASUS ROG Strix GL502VM. It's mostly made of plastic, but the back of the lid is metal. When the power supply is connected to an ungrounded socket the back of the lid feels weird to touch, like the surface is vibrating.

After I while I realized that this has to be electricity. I have grounded sockets in my kitchen and bathroom, but not in the rooms where I actually use the PC. Should I be worried about this, is there a risk of damage to me, the PC or anything else? ???

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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How is it even possible to plug it in if there is no ground on the socket? I would guess that this is probably very dangerous for you, but probably isn't ideal for the laptop either. I suggest only using it with grounded sockets..

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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torhu said:

. When the power supply is connected to an ungrounded socket the back of the lid feels weird to touch, like the surface is vibrating.

Is it vibrating because the power mode is set to performance when AC is plugged in, and the fan/HDD is running? :P :P :P

A simple volt-meter will tell you whether any miswiring problems. Connect one end to it, the other to the ground hole in your plug (or a metal fixture in the bathroom).

But any US sold laptop, by a reputable manufacturer, has a sticker on it for like UL or whatnaut and it certifies that it's not doing something insanely illegal electrically like wiring power through a ground service.

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But, if your AC adapter only has two plugs? It's double insulated. Even if the laptop has a metal surface, it's legally not allowed to have anything touch it internally.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/edexcel_pre_2011/electricityworld/mainselectricityrev4.shtml

Unless of course, it's broken somehow. But I've literally never heard of a story of that happening unless we're talking some fake China "Apple" chargers, or a miswired home/apartment appliance.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Also, this sounds like your issue: https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=24467039&sid=077c203eb3630eeb459c55118f2123e4#p24467039

Sounds like it's not very dangerous, but I would still be nervous about it myself. :D

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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bamccaig said:

How is it even possible to plug it in if there is no ground on the socket?

Sockets are different in different countries (see Wikipedia page). Here, in Spain, we use CEE 7 variants and a lot of stuff doesn't has ground!

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Current projects: Allegro.pas | MinGRo

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I get that sockets are different. Are you saying in some countries they sell grounded AC systems by chopping off the ground pin and selling you un-grounded systems? Because that sounds illegal and dangerous as hell. We're talking about circuit design, not shape of the plug.

If it has a ground pin, it's 100% essential. The "proper" way to remove the third pin is to use a proper adapter that has a ground wire, and you attach the ground wire to something "groundy" like metal fixtures or a deep metal stake pounded into the ground.

If it doesn't have a ground pin, it's double insulated. If it does have a ground pin, it's not double insulated and it not only relies on ground for "safety" (in case a hot wire touches the case), but also [possibly dangerous] noise [depending on application] is often shunted through to the ground wire.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/safety-capacitor-class-x-and-class-y-capacitors/

[edit]

Quote:

On the DC Plug going into the laptop, the ground conductor is usually (but not always) connected to the Safety Ground. Doing this makes it easier to pass regulatory testing approval (EMC, ESD, Etc.). It also reduces leakage current through the "isolation" barrier inside the power supply. Some people complain that when laptops are placed on their bare laps, they get a tingling sensation where the screws of the laptop touch their skin. Having those screws connected to the safety ground of the AC plug mostly gets rid of that issue.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/78079/why-is-this-laptop-adapter-grounded

Sounds like your GROUND IS BROKEN (possibly the outlet). But it could also be some !@$!@y design, I guess. But from what people say, it's supposed to be "not a big deal" as the tingling isn't enough to actually shock you. OTOH that same post says engineers were measuring 60V and said "!@$! this" and management bought all new laptops with 3-pin/grounds.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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If it has a ground pin, it's 100% essential. The "proper" way to remove the third pin is to use a proper adapter that has a ground wire, and you attach the ground wire to something "groundy" like metal fixtures or a deep metal stake pounded into the ground.

I plug 3 prong plugs into 2 prong outlets all the time. It needs an adapter, but I've never had problems. Is this really an issue? Most of the outlets in our house are all 2 prong. We'd have to rewire our entire house if we wanted 'proper' grounded outlets.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheater_plug#Safety

I wouldn't recommend it. You're defeating an intentional safety device that designs rely on, and shunt noise into (increasing your noise in the device).

Proper cheater plugs are supposed to have a ground wire that you wire to a ground in your house. Note the tab on the bottom:

{"name":"1200px-Cheater_plug_edited.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/1\/9\/19809e334cfbd751be18baaa43d782b9.jpg","w":1200,"h":900,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/1\/9\/19809e334cfbd751be18baaa43d782b9"}1200px-Cheater_plug_edited.jpg

You can often wire them through into the wall-plate screw itself:

{"name":"jTqrx.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/e\/fe281f43d036e44e7b0977c75b4e112f.jpg","w":366,"h":257,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/e\/fe281f43d036e44e7b0977c75b4e112f"}jTqrx.jpg

But I'd be sure to check that plate is grounded.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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The argument that you've been doing it and so far you're fine is flawed. That's a fine argument when the stakes are low. When the stakes are high, like your proper brain function or very life, it only takes one time that it didn't work out.

Stupid people take the batteries out of their smoke alarm if it goes off when they cook or shower. Most of them are never affected by it. Some of them are not alerted to a fire and die. This doesn't affect them very long (hopefully), but will be traumatic for their loved ones.

Similarly, people weld, use power tools, and all manner of other dangerous equipment without eye, ear, or foot protection. Most of them get away with it most of the time. And yet, it only takes once to change your life forever. And I bet every time that "once" occurs the person regrets it for the rest of their life (assuming the event didn't kill them, in which case only their loved ones have to regret it).

In the case of a house being wired without proper grounds I don't think there's a good, simple answer. The simple answer is rewire the entire house. Obviously, that can be prohibitively expensive. In which case, the answer is don't buy that house in the first place, or if you do make sure you force the seller to drop the price sufficiently so you can budget for the rewire/refinish. But if it has been passed down from generation to generation before grounded plugs were a thing you don't have a choice in that. There's always the option to try to sell... Or you can always take your chances.. There's not always a good, simple answer...

But of course, you cannot argue that you're stuck with it so it's fine. It's not fine. It's dangerous. People can and do die from it. Grounded prongs are there for a reason. It should concern you greatly any time you bypass them.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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It's a family house from the 1800's with pretty old wiring. For the heavy stuff we use power strips of course, which provide 3 prong power. Haha but to do that you have to plug the 3 prong power strip into a 2 prong outlet...

We definitely can't afford to have the house rewired. We can barely afford to have an electrician replace a few faulty outlets before buying a new air conditioner. The house was like 90 or 95 yesterday. Thank God it cooled off a little bit overnight and with some rain or I'd be dyin right now.

Also, you're talking to the kid who took some insulated wire and stuck either end in either end of the bathroom outlet. Surprise it arced and I pulled it out and never did that again....(Kids don't try this at home, seriously...)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It's a family house from the 1800's with pretty old wiring. For the heavy stuff we use power strips of course, which provide 3 prong power. Haha but to do that you have to plug the 3 prong power strip into a 2 prong outlet...

I'm not sure you understand how electrical sockets work... Your power strips are not providing 3 prong sockets unless you've grounded the power strip somehow (as Chris suggested). Which even though it should technically work, it still exposes the ground to humans which means keep all children and drunk adults away because they can still get electrocuted if they touch the wrong spot and are unlucky. If you're using a "cheater" to plug the 3-prong power strip into the wall then you're cheating the entire system and basically nothing is safe. If your computer shorts into your case it's a potential death trap.

We can barely afford to have an electrician replace a few faulty outlets before buying a new air conditioner. The house was like 90 or 95 yesterday. Thank God it cooled off a little bit overnight and with some rain or I'd be dyin right now.

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm a Canadian that used to wear long sleeves and long pants all summer long, but in these global warming summers even I need A/C. I hope you at least have decent fans.. I like the big steel fans that sound like an aircraft is taking off. You get used to the noise, and they move air like nothing else. Let me know if you need details and I'll try to find some manufacturers.

Also, you're talking to the kid who took some insulated wire and stuck either end in either end of the bathroom outlet. Surprise it arced and I pulled it out and never did that again....(Kids don't try this at home, seriously...)

I don't know how old you were when you did that. If it makes you feel better when I was like 4 years old I stuck a random key into an electrical socket pretending it was a car's ignition (I was always fascinated by driving). I think the shock threw me against the chair that I was hiding behind when I did it. And of course, not understanding it made me freak out. I don't even think my mom knew that I did it until I confessed on her lap in a fit of tears. But that was almost 30 years ago so I'm probably unknowingly filling in blanks with my imagination.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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The power strips have surge protectors. They automatically shut off power in the case of a short or surge.

Also, mad props for surviving a direct 120V AC shock.

Also also, our house is wired with breakers, and if they take more than 15 or 30 amps (depending on whether or not they are single or double breakers) they shutoff. That's not to say a 5 Amp shock couldn't kill you at 120V.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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The power strips have surge protectors. They automatically shut off power in the case of a short or surge.

But how would they work without a ground? I don't know how they work in general so I cannot answer that, but I'd sure as shit want to answer that if I was relying on it! Based on my Google results there is a general consensus that without a proper ground there's no guarantee that a surge protector will work (sounds like the laymen explanation is that the excess is supposed to be routed through ground, and if no such ground exists then it has nowhere else to go except through the device and/or "shortcut")..

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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The power strips have surge protectors. They automatically shut off power in the case of a short or surge.

Surge protectors protect equipment (read: lightning/shockwaves coming from blown transformer or power station), they don't protect people. You're thinking of a GFCI, a ground-fault interruptor. (The power required to "blow" equipment is way more than it takes to kill a person. A motor could easily run 24/7 on power that would kill a person, so how would a surge protector know the difference between "normal" and "killing someone"? Unless... the ground worked...)

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gfi.html

https://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm

Which detects current leaking through the ground wire and basically any time Neutral_input + Hot_output != 0 (in case it leaks somewhere else) and shuts the power off.

They also only exist... in newer homes. You'll see them in somewhat older homes in bathrooms only. Nowadays, they put them straight into the electrical bus and protect the whole house.

But really, there's no reason to not fix your ground problem in your house if you own it. (If renting, it's probably illegal for the landlord to not update it.) It can be done for almost free, with some time reading wikis/articles/whatever. If the screws in the fixtures (like the above picture) are grounded, that's all you need to do. Tie the ground of the adapter, to the screw. Otherwise, the easy/hackish/still-good-enough thing to do is run "Ground wires" from some/many/all of your sockets (just a plain wire), and have them all come to a single point. If you wire them all separately to different places, they can form a "ground loop" because one has more resistance to Earth than the other.

Quote:

5 Amp shock couldn't kill you at 120V.

5 amp will definitely kill you unless you're lucky enough to not... die. AC electricity is dangerous because it convulses your muscles into locking on so you can't let go. And that starts at a mere 30 milliamps. A mere 150 ma will stop your breathing. Above 1 amp, it damages your nervous system and consulves your heart to death. 4.3 amp "death is likely" 10 amp "death is probable".

https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/how-much-voltage-can-you-take-on-before-you-die/

The biggest thing that protects you from electricity being a super death trap, is the fact that dry skin is such a large resistor. That's why tasors (not "stun guns") pierce the skin with needles and extremely painfully zap your internal nervous system/body through the water balloons we call bodies.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Okay, so what about plugging 2 prong devices into a 3 prong outlet? They're not grounded. So how is that legal then? Can't the same thing happen?

I'll look into the GFCI's you mentioned (that's what they're called here)...

I can't remember correctly, but I thought local code only said GFCIs had to be installed near water sources, in like kitchens and bathrooms.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I think that 2 prong devices that meet certain standards (manufactured after some date probably) are either less risk of causing harm because they use less power or ... I don't know. Chris mentioned some double insulated thingamajig? Not my area of expertise. I let the electrical engineers protect me from electricity. >:(

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Modern 2 prong, are used when the device is double insulated.

IIRC, with old 2 prong (pre-double insulated standard), have a different shape. On the new standard, one prong is always WIDER than the other so you can't reverse the order.
https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/question110.htm

Quote:

The ground slot and the neutral slot of an outlet are identical. That is, if you go back to the breaker box, you will find that the neutral and ground wires from all of the outlets go to the same place.

and

Quote:

If you look around your house, what you will find is that just about every appliance with a metal case has a three-prong outlet. This may also include some things, like your computer, that have a metal-encased power supply inside even if the device itself comes in a plastic case. The idea behind grounding is to protect the people who use metal-encased appliances from electric shock. The casing is connected directly to the ground prong.

Two prong, double insulated:

http://c03.apogee.net/contentplayer/?coursetype=foe&utilityid=citizenselectric&id=4678

Quote:

The primary difference between a drill with a 3 prong plug and a drill with a 2 prong plug is the drill case material. If the drill case material is conductive, in other words, is made of some kind of iron or ferrous material, then the drill must have a grounding conductor and 3 prong plug.

Quote:

Many of the newer small electrical appliances and tools do not have a the third grounding prong on the plug. Typical examples are blenders, coffee makers, blow dryers, drills, and other power tools. Appliances and tools of this type are called "double insulated". They have two levels of insulating materials between the electrical parts of the appliance and any parts on the outside that you touch.

[edit] Also, fun fact: Miswired internally, or reversed two prong (without the larger key) often "work" because an AC transformer doesn't care which direction it's coming from and the AC to DC rectification also doesn't care. However, it would then put the METALIC CASE AT MAINS VOLTAGE. So if you then touch anything properly grounded (even a metal pipe), kiss your ass goodbye.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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Are you saying in some countries they sell grounded AC systems by chopping off the ground pin and selling you un-grounded systems?

Nope: I'm saying that it's possible to sell both grounded and ungrounded AC systems, both compatible, so you can plug grounded in non-grounded and non-grounded in grounded.

Quote:

If it has a ground pin, it's 100% essential. The "proper" way to remove the third pin is to use a proper adapter that has a ground wire, and you attach the ground wire to something "groundy" like metal fixtures or a deep metal stake pounded into the ground.

Agree, but people is quite stupid here (I mean where I live, not this forum), you know.

<edit>I'll not say more because I haven't the vocabulary or the knowledge enough to do it.

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torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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I should mention that I live in Norway.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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torhu said:

I should mention that I live in Norway.

Good for you. ::) Hey, everyone, look at Torhu. He has healthcare and a job with vacation days! WoooOOOoooOOO! He's soooOOOOooo great!

;) ;)

Back to the thread. There's definitely ways to retrofit grounds into a system. Many systems don't even need extra wiring! Just open the receptacle (shut off the power first >:( ) it may already have an armored ground wire. You can just attach to that.

https://mrelectric.com/blog/2-prong-outlets-not-up-to-code

Quote:

Retrofit a Three Prong Receptacle Without Rewiring
Metal boxes found in most old outlets are attached to an armored cable, which serve the same purpose as a ground wire. You can take advantage of this to ground the receptacle without rewiring.

First, test for a grounded box with a circuit tester. Insert one prong into the shorter hot slot and touch the other prong to a cover plate screw. If the circuit tester lights up, the box is grounded. You now know an electrician can inexpensively ground the receptacle without rewiring it.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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shut off the power first >:(

In Europe you probably shut the power off by calling two buddies that you hate to grab the live circuit on either side of you. :-X

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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Good for you. ::) Hey, everyone, look at Torhu. He has healthcare and a job with vacation days! WoooOOOoooOOO! He's soooOOOOooo great!

Hey! Here, in Spain, we have the same (more or less)!

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Current projects: Allegro.pas | MinGRo

Peter Hull
Member #1,136
March 2001

At work we have developed a product which has a large textured metal plate on top of it, and a two-pin connector(even though we are in the UK - I suppose the earth just isn't connected to anything) Just as torhu described, it has this tickly vibrating sensation, it's quite strange. My understanding was the same as bamccaig linked to. Also I am confident it's safe because it passed its EN61010 certification.

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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I have the same issue with my Asus laptop.
But since we do have a ground-fault interruptor ( wich is mandatory over here) it would cut off the electricity if it where a leaking current.
I have my laptop for over 5 years and no one got fried, so I think you're quite safe
also, since you're behind a transformer, there is no danger in closing the primary circuit with any part of your body , unless there is a common ground !

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
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