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SourceForge
Elias
Member #358
May 2000

SourceForge now is down for the 6th day. My impression is they simply don't care about the open source project hosting any longer at all.

I suggest we switch our github mirror to be the official repository (I just pushed two commits there, the mirror script can't mirror anything anyway with the source down...): https://github.com/liballeg

If everyone agrees, and if SF ever comes back up again, we can disable the git repository on SF. Website and bug tracker are easily moved over to github as well I think.

I don't know about mailing list and downloads - if github can't do those we might want to find alternatives for those as well.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
avatar

I agree with every point.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Maybe if enough groups ask nicely GitHub will integrate mailing lists. :) In the meantime another solution is probably needed... Though a Web forum would probably suffice. There is always the development forum here as a fallback...

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

I can probably set up mailman or something on my email server. And if no-one else offers, I can slap the website up on my web server.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Website is back up now: http://liballeg.org/

It's now a github.io page - I simply committed the output of the allegrowww2 repository into github's website repository: https://github.com/liballeg/liballeg.github.io

In theory that means to update the website, we'd have to first edit files in allegrowww2, run make, then commit the result. However I think right now would be a good time for someone to step up and create a new simple website, maybe something integrated in github so it can be easily updated from there :)

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
avatar

As in a new new website?

I also noticed the allegro5.org domain name was in use (somewhere, earlier). Is that you? What's the intended purpose/relationship between the each of the domain names?

--
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Elias
Member #358
May 2000

liballeg.org is the only official domain. allegro5.org I think was given to me by trentg a few years ago and I decided to keep it, but no plans to do anything with it. There also was talk about changing versioning to Allegro 6, 7, 8... instead of 5.2, 5.3, 5.4... so then it would be worthless anyway.

And yes, I think we agreed that we want a new design. And half of the current content is outdated (if we want download locations for all 3.9.x WIPs, that really can be a wiki page instead, same as a collection of horrible logo attempts or the "humor" section...). So I think basically start a new website from scratch :)

The current one is both really nice to edit (markdown files stored in git, we want to keep that) but also really hard (nobody ever remembers how to get the html updated once a markdown change gets committed). So that's why I think we should see if there's a good way to have github automate that task.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

I looks like SF is trying to reduce expenses. The relatively popular audio editor Audacity's home page has been down for weeks now, while TortoiseSVN's is still up. If it was only those two projects, I'd guess the difference is caused by SF wanting to draw in young future professional programmers. If that's the case, Allegro is probably not even a blip on the radar compared to TortoiseSVN :-/

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

I suggested this move months ago, so I'm all in favor. Sad, but true, Sourceforge has jumped the shark. Well, at least, now we can focus on improving the web site.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

SF jumped the shark years ago. It's just been doing more jumping.

It just wasn't really worth the effort to switch away before.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
avatar

GitHub uses Jekyll, which if you figure out how to use it, Markdown all the way, and the build process happens on GitHub!

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

TortoiseSVN is obsolete since SVN is obsolete. Certainly this not a popularity contest. It's probably just an unprofessional downsizing and/or conscious suicide attempt. SourceForge has always been a terrible host. Most people are just embarrassingly lazy and careless. :-/

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Well, to be fair, SourceForge was a great host originally (15 or so years ago). They were completely open source and gave you free hosting and even shell access - something completely unheard of at that point. But yes, about 10 years ago they started going downhill.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

It got a little too popular and they were struggling. things were still pretty good, but then they got bought out iirc. THEN it went to shit.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
avatar

It was Obama. >:(

--
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

What are you talking about? He wasn't even a US citizen back then ::)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

I tried out github-jekyll: http://liballeg.org/allegro5

How it works s this. The website's source code is here: https://github.com/liballeg/allegro5/tree/gh-pages

Whenever someone pushes a change, github will re-run Jekyll to create the website - so very easy updating. This would be the main advantage over our current solution.

Jekyll uses markdown just like our custom website did, so I could simply re-use our old news items. Rebuilding the entire site should be a matter of 1 or 2 hours if we pick Jekyll - most of the enhancements over markdown our custom site has exist in a similar but different form in Jekyll as well.

We would of course keep our own system for the documentation generation.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

Hey, it should be noted that Github is full of social-justice warriors now. So if the documentation contains anything they can construe as offensive, they may take it down.

WebMConverter has just been taken down for having the word "retard" in the description.

https://archive.is/XiTS9

Here, Github takes down a completely satirical programming language as well as all forks.

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/14/1618239/github-takes-down-satirical-c-plus-equality-language?utm_source=rss1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed

Here people argue for banning contributors whose political beliefs on personal twitter accounts aren't politically correct. (This appears to be a common tactic... sifting through people's social media to find things to be outraged by.) Also, if you want to have an insane amount of laughter, definitely read a few pages of this discussion. It makes our religious wars on Allegro look like polite conversation.

https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

Here they are removing an amazing rug of "United Meritocracy of Github" because social justice warriors said that hiring based on merit is unfair to people who have less than ideal upbringings. That's right. Hiring based on skill is unfair to people who suck at their job.

http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug

I'm all for git, but if you choose github, make sure you understand the feel-good fluffy atmosphere you're subscribing to. Because apparently even your contributors personal lives can subject the project to lynch mobbing.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
avatar

If github pulls anything of the sort on us, we'll just move on. Just need to keep a regular backup of the issues :P. The SJW plague is partly omnipresent, dealing with it is just the price of operating on the modern internet.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

It's unfortunately not just Github. Looks like nowadays fundamentalism has become wide spread on all sides of the political spectrum. And the group you're talking about (because I don't know if you can even call them "feminists") is on the move. They're attacking gaming, FLOSS development, atheism, movies, etc, etc. Companies like Github or Atlassian are under tons of pressure from them, and will probably keep on caving in until a strong enough countermovement arises. We're not safe anywhere, but that's life for you. :)

Back on topic, Jekyll seems like a cool solution. So let's use that for now. I wish I had time to contribute.

Edit: Siegelord and I must be in telepathy, he said just what I meant, but in a shorter way.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

Anyway, SF is back up...

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

GitHub is not the enemy in that debate per se. As a for profit company they're somewhat at the mercy of the population. They can always choose not to bow to the whims of SJWs, but if that means their business will fail because a significant population will stop doing business with them then they have little choice. They're a victim of people siding with the SJWs instead of using their brains and standing up to the harassment and up for free thinking, etc. Freedom in speech, beliefs, and thinking means that people must be free to form bad ideas as well as good ones. Attempting to harm people for their ideas is wrong, even if their ideas are bad. They should only be judged for their actions, and judgements should be proportional to the actual real harm of those actions (i.e., offending people doesn't hurt them, and if the actions of one indirectly provoke others to do real harm that should not be held against the one whose actions themselves did no harm). We really just need people to stand up to the SJWs. Stop trying to be such a white knight for the dark forces and think about who YOUR actions may hurt. If we all did this then such anti-freedom campaigns would be entirely ineffective and laughable instead of being tragic for the individuals targeted.

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

I'd never though the day would come, but now I find myself in full agreement with what bambams is saying. Three cheers for freedom of thought and expression! :)

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
avatar

In the past, George Takei (and his partner Brad Takei even more so) has been a major source of the types of materials that cause people to at and think this way. The two of them have represented a prominent voice of social activism.

But I've noticed a slow change of tenor on George's feed, and this post recently appeared on George Takei's Facebook feed few days ago. I take it as a sign that tides are changing, and people are starting to wake up the reality that these tactics can be harmful and lead to abusive results.

Personally, I want to know how it all started and what caused this trend.

--
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torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

In the same vein, this is satire on how for instance feminists are looking for sexism everywhere (it's a bald guy complaining that bald people in movies are always villains). It's funny 8-)

video

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