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Allegro 5 "marketing" :) |
SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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And now I'm voting against anything you produce too, thanks for playing . "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012
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Well, we should use the refreshed graphics as a starting point in my opinion. Armando did a good job with that pacmanized O to tell you the truth, at least that's my opinion...something could be definitely done there. I agree that it should not be only the word "Allegro", but was the alligator chosen due to simple assonance? I think that there ought to be a logo with SOME kind of symbolism, since we cannot realy on an acronym (even thou Allegro IS such?). SiegeLord said: And now I'm voting against anything you produce too, thanks for playing Do you think AM was serious with his post? It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo |
Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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Do you think SiegeLord was? I too think the logo AMCerasoli is very good. Definetely better than the current one which just says "hey, look, it's shitty!". In capitalist America bank robs you. |
pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012
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Vanneto said: Do you think SiegeLord was? I can't tell, that's why I asked...I wasn't implying, I honestly can't tell and am curious about it. It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo |
SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I'm deadly serious. Also, in terms of cleaning up the wiki... do it properly this time. Last time somebody (who's name starts with A and ends with I) did it, I had to spend quite a bit of time fixing the mess. "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010
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Well, the logo is open for patches We have to start somewhere, it was meant as a starting point. I like the Pacmanized version, too; but maybe we should add some other graphic element. I think we can do better than the SDL one, though. What about my suggestions for the official website and the wiki? Who is / is someone in charge of the website? What does he think? |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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The project is in control of the website. Everyone is in control of the wiki, but I happen to run it. As long as you actually make an objective improvement to the wiki, go for it. -- |
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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pkrcel said:
Edgar Reynaldo said: Anyone can post news on the front page, it just needs to be approved by whoever does that (Matthew? AK?). Hardly ever useful in this way, as I already said there's need for a current community website; as it stands there is a TON of things that need maintenance (and do not receive it) for no practical reason...all that could be removed with no harm. There is a current website (liballeg.org), and then there is the community (forums). It's best if people understand that the most current news and releases are on liballeg.org, and not on a.cc. A.cc only offers binaries for 4.2 and 5, there aren't even any binaries for 4.4.3, the latest version of A4. I think people expect everything allegro to be here ready made for them on the forums, but that is wrong, everything needed is on liballeg.org and the wiki. I agree things need maintenance, but scrapping the news page of a.cc is not an improvement in my eyes. I see that page every time I log into a.cc, and if there is any news I immediately check it out, but the actual latest information on allegro is on liballeg.org. We just need to get more involved I think. Polybios said: Further ideas for front page text: Are you talking about the front page of a.cc, the wiki, or liballeg.org? It's too easy to get confused if you don't specify. Yodhe23 said: I think having some well documented tutorial/example games (sic) on the wiki would attract a lot more people/fresh blood. There are tutorials on the wiki, but no games. It would be nice if the example games that come with A5 were given more advertising, but ultimately if you want to check out the source for a game or two, you can. If you start putting games up on the wiki, you have to teach everyone the components of making those games. AABB, atlasing, and so on... where would it end? It seems like that is not something we should really be doing. pkrcel said: On this very topic, we should add some general references about this in the wiki for people looking for help, to general porgramming resources and a bit if in-house explanation, that could go a long way with not that much effort. Anyone agrees? I agree, why don't you come up with some material to add to / modify the wiki with? I mean, examples of your changes would be good. And any a.cc member can edit the wiki, so it is something you could work on. Polybios said: IMHO the most important thing the Wiki should provide, is Getting started guides/tutorials for each of the supported platforms. These should be easy to follow, clear and above all, up-to-date. I agree. SiegeLord already put up a guide for building A5 on windows. Can you contribute one for the a linux distro? Or android? Or OSX? Android and OSX building needs the most attention right now in my eyes, but I don't know anything about it. Polybios said: There should be a central "Getting started" page that can be linked at from the official website. There is : http://wiki.allegro.cc/index.php?title=Getting_Started Lots of good ideas people. It's good to see people wanting to get involved. My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I've been personally working on the Allegro "UI" for awhile now. Aside from shuffling the chairs on a sinking ship, here are some real, concrete things that need to be done: Wiki:
Documentation:
Examples:
And now, for my vision of the front page:
"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010
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Thank you SiegeLord. I do think there are things more "real" and "concrete" than "marketing", too. But how to attract "fresh blood" when it is unnecessarily difficult to find out how great Allegro 5 actually is? From the point 4.9 becoming 5.0 I have the impression that 'public communication' (err, sorry, no native speaker here) of its qualities has been not as good as the library itself. Today, there is no DJGPP download form anymore / its importance has quite declined if there is SiegeLord said: I don't think the overall organization is bad as it is. A4 already has pretty clear "don't use me" sentences. I guess we could make them bold I think the main point I'm trying to make here all the time is: Allegro should publicly evolve to being Allegro5. That means Allegro4 and 5 shouldn't be featured in parallel on the pages people are likely to see first (liballeg.org front page, Wiki getting started page / ... ). Because: Allegro4's parallel presence is an obstacle to communicating Allegro5's many feautures on these most important pages. I never meant to say "everything is bad". That's not the case at all. Edgar Reynaldo said: I do like the current "Getting started" page in the Wiki, but as I already said: There would be not much sense in providing someone who comes to the site via the official web page (liballeg.org) with 1) a link to the site where he already is and 3) the site where he came from. That's probably not what the person needs to know. Instead: It would be better to have links to tutorials / getting started to the different platforms for Allegro5 . But this would require that the "Getting started" page was only/mainly concerned with Allegro5, contrary to its current state. The way it is now, you first have to choose between Allegro 5 and 4. That's one unneccessary step, as we don't want anyone to get started with Allegro4 anymore. Edit2: The current "Getting started" page should IMHO be renamed to "Resources" or something like that. Quote: Are you talking about the front page of a.cc, the wiki, or liballeg.org? liballeg.org mostly. SiegeLord said: And now, for my vision of the front page: This would be 'excellent'. I think we should make it 'very good' before that. I really do think that a better introduction / front page is very important. When I'm looking for a library, I expect people to be able to tell me what their project is actually doing and why I should use it on the first page. edit: I do think that a nicer design of the page is more important than screenshots. As Allegro is a library, you can hardly take screenshots of Allegro itself. Thomas Fjellstrom said: As long as you actually make an objective improvement to the wiki, go for it. I'm trying to convince people first, because it has to do with the balance of Allegro 5 / 4. And, besides time issues, I'm a bit shy about actually doing the front page / Getting started Wiki page texts it as I'm no native speaker. |
beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011
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Plenty of good suggestions here! I had an idea for the logo, between the {}, there's now a "crest" that symbolizes the fact you can use Allegro for Audio, Video (with 3d if needed), game programming and input handling. I included the Inkscape SVG sources so thers can improve on it easily. I didn't pacman the O of Alllegro since it would be redundant, but the pacman in the crest could be replaced by somtheing else... The crest could be used by itself, by the way... Look at the attachments to see the image. I'm not such a great artist, so yeah, someone else could proabably do better with the same or a similar idea. |
pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012
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Edgar Reynaldo said: I agree things need maintenance, but scrapping the news page of a.cc is not an improvement in my eyes. I see that page every time I log into a.cc, and if there is any news I immediately check it out, but the actual latest information on allegro is on liballeg.org. I suggested to sync the news feed of a.cc with liballeg.org, so to have AT LEAST the current latest version news on a.cc, not to scrap that. I think there's a ton of a.cc that's just so badly outdated that makes no sense whatsoever and actually may be confusing...but hey, MOST a.cc is current nevertheless (a.cc is several tons a displacement!). Quote: A.cc only offers binaries for 4.2 and 5, there aren't even any binaries for 4.4.3, the latest version of A4. I see also a 4.4 section of the files page there, actually. Quote: I agree, why don't you come up with some material to add to / modify the wiki with? I mean, examples of your changes would be good. And any a.cc member can edit the wiki, so it is something you could work on. I know, I may come up with something but seems this is a bit controversial. On other points: Following SiegeLord's advice on the wiki, which I agree with, I'd like to add that there has to be a "getting started tutorial", so for a newbie "out of the blue" to even copypaste something working and explain the steps to get that to compile. SiegeLord said: I don't know what could be done about compilation/installation tutorials. In my opinion, pre-compiled binaries are what's needed. Even my, imo, straightforward Windows A5 compilation guide takes an hour to go through by myself. I think that's not too acceptable. Well, I concur that there's not really a LOT that could be done on compilation/installation tutorials, there will ALWAYS be the need of some basic understandings of how things work in general (compiling, linking, include paths, etc..), this is actually why I was proposing to spend some energy to write a general help page on the wiki about the very basic concepts...not too deep, with most info referred with links to learncpp.com or the likes... On a slightly offtopic note in this regard, I've recently succeeded in compiling allegro with MingW64 through MSYS2. MSYS2 has a fuckton of packages INCLUDING ALL of Allegro dependencies, and has up-to date LGPL directx headers (from wine project), so basically it could end up installing MSYS2 (download a file and unpack somewhere), download&install the compiler & all allegro dependencies (some pacman -S package commands issued on the command line) and then CMAKE Allegro. I'll work on that and ask for feedback in the next future I think. It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo |
beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011
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By the way, this is a very great tutorial on C programming that I think we could link somewhere for the newbie to start out with before they attempt Allegro: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ |
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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@SiegeLord pkrcel said: I see also a 4.4 section of the files page there, actually. Oops, you're right. It wasn't that long ago there were no binaries for 4.4 though. Polybios said: I do like the current "Getting started" page in the Wiki, but as I already said: There would be not much sense in providing someone who comes to the site via the official web page (liballeg.org) with 1) a link to the site where he already is and 3) the site where he came from. That's probably not what the person needs to know. Where are the links from liballeg.org to the getting started page on the wiki? I haven't seen one. Polybios said: Instead: It would be better to have links to tutorials / getting started to the different platforms for Allegro5 . But this would require that the "Getting started" page was only/mainly concerned with Allegro5, contrary to its current state. The way it is now, you first have to choose between Allegro 5 and 4. That's one unneccessary step, as we don't want anyone to get started with Allegro4 anymore. Edit2: The current "Getting started" page should IMHO be renamed to "Resources" or something like that. I think it would be best to keep the page mostly as it is on the wiki, but rename it like you said. A getting started page should have links to tutorials and example code, and could link to the newly renamed Resources page. The links on the getting started page should stay I think, because what if you came from google to that page? I think it's good to link back to the official website and the forums. pkrcel said: On a slightly offtopic note in this regard, I've recently succeeded in compiling allegro with MingW64 through MSYS2. MSYS2 has a ton of packages INCLUDING ALL of Allegro dependencies, and has up-to date LGPL directx headers (from wine project), so basically it could end up installing MSYS2 (download a file and unpack somewhere), download&install the compiler & all allegro dependencies (some pacman -S package commands issued on the command line) and then CMAKE Allegro. That is really helpful to know. I may go install MSYS2 now.... beoran said: By the way, this is a very great tutorial on C programming that I think we could link somewhere for the absolute newboe to start out with before they attempt Allegro: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ It would be nice if there was a page on the wiki with links to good C and C++ programming resources. No need to be more than a link page though I think. We're not here to teach anyone how to program. My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012
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Edgar Reynaldo said: That is really helpful to know. I may go install MSYS2 now.... We're OT but drop me a shout out if you need directions, I know I needed. Quote: It would be nice if there was a page on the wiki with links to good C and C++ programming resources. No need to be more than a link page though I think. We're not here to teach anyone how to program. Agreed, but some comments and a general separation into sections is due. Quote: Where are the links from liballeg.org to the getting started page on the wiki? I haven't seen one. Even if there is no actual link, chances are that one ends up on that page in the wiki having already been in both liballeg.org and a.cc...so poly has a point there. It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo |
Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010
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I know it's impolite to quote myself, but I want your opinions on the Allegro 5 / Allegro 4 thing. Thomasu, SiegeLord, Elias and other people whose opinion might matter , do you agree with the following? Polybios said: Allegro should publicly evolve to being Allegro5 (i. e. Allegro should refer to Allegro 5). That means Allegro4 and 5 shouldn't be featured in parallel on the pages people are likely to see first (liballeg.org front page, Wiki getting started page / ... ). Because: Allegro4's parallel presence is an obstacle to communicating Allegro5's many feautures on these most important pages. This seems to be the main change I'd like to propose, so I want your opinions on that point! Edgar Reynaldo said: Where are the links from liballeg.org to the getting started page on the wiki? I haven't seen one. No no, there isn't one. But there should be. That's what I'm trying to say all the time. Because (repeating myself here): The first thing people will need are platform dependent instructions. They are in the wiki. This is good, as easier to maintain. So we need to link those instructions from the official site. So we need a place in the Wiki to link to. This would most logically be the "Getting started" page. Because when you want to get started, you'll most likely want to install / build / ... the library. You don't want to know where you are and where you most likely already have been. Quote: A getting started page should have links to tutorials and example code Yes, but (links to) platform dependent instructions are even more important. You can't try out any code before you've got the thing built and an environment set up. This is the very first thing people will want to know ("Does this work on my machine at all? How?"). |
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Polybios said:
Edgar Reynaldo said: A getting started page should have links to tutorials and example code Yes, but (links to) platform dependent instructions are even more important. You can't try out any code before you've got the thing built and an environment set up. This is the very first thing people will want to know ("Does this work on my machine at all? How?"). Yes, that all makes a lot of sense. But you need tutorials or examples to get going unless you're the kind of guy who is an API guru and just learns everything through the manual. I believe both sets of content should be present. So, does anyone know how changes to the liballeg.org website occur? What needs to happen to modify / update content? Tomasu, is there any way to sandbox changes to the wiki? So we can preview and then save our partial modifications without actually changing the page? And is there a good guide to the wiki speak? I dunno how to speak wiki anymore if I ever did. My Website! | EAGLE GUI Library Demos | My Deviant Art Gallery | Spiraloid Preview | A4 FontMaker | Skyline! (Missile Defense) Eagle and Allegro 5 binaries | Older Allegro 4 and 5 binaries | Allegro 5 compile guide |
beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011
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The wiki itself has a "preview" button you can use to preview your changes, and IIRC it has links to pages explaining it's own syntax as well. And it has sandbox pages. Youc oculd even create a preview page and edit that, then move thecontents to the real page later. So, if you are careful, then normally it won't be too hard to make changes. To get this ball rolling I made a "Getting Started v2" we can use to edit step by step until the content is OK to replace the "current getting" started page: |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Polybios said: Thomasu, SiegeLord, Elias and other people whose opinion might matter , do you agree with the following? I don't think my opinion matters all that much here, but I do think that we should mostly be focusing on Allegro 5, and that better documentation and tutorials are needed. I don't think it'd hurt to have an Allegro 4 page or "Legacy" page for Allegro 4. -- |
Elias
Member #358
May 2000
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Edgar Reynaldo said: So, does anyone know how changes to the liballeg.org website occur? What needs to happen to modify / update content? It's all in git, so simply clone the repository, change it, test it in a browser, submit patch. [edit] -- |
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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AMCerasoli said: Alligator = Gay {"name":"608433","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/c\/ec89993df7cd7ba75b194fd47320eafb.png","w":329,"h":465,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/c\/ec89993df7cd7ba75b194fd47320eafb"} ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010
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Ok, I tried to collect most ideas from this thread on the wiki page. Tried to keep it short. Now we can start working. Sorry, when I missed your idea. There were quite a lot of them. But you can edit the wiki yourself! The crucial problem seems to provide precompiled binaries for more platforms. What can we do about that? I have the impression that Peter Wang's opinion is important. @Matthew:
What do you think? Could this be done? pkrcel said: a.cc is "simply" the community behind the library but...as I have read on gamedev, there's some feeling of "official" in this site for newcomers The only reason I can think of: IMHO Allegro.cc's design is quite superior to the official site. That's why we should do something about that. beoran said: had an idea for the logo, between the {}, there's now a "crest" that symbolizes the fact you can use Allegro for Audio, Video (with 3d if needed), game programming and input handling. I included the Inkscape SVG sources so thers can improve on it easily. I didn't pacman the O of Alllegro since it would be redundant, but the pacman in the crest could be replaced by somtheing else... My wife says a logo should be simple and every part of it should be well recognizable, even when viewed in small size. So having all those small, but detailed icons could be difficult... If you or someone else has an idea for / about the logo, please post it. Even words suffice, no images needed. |
beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011
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@Polybios: Thanks for kicking off that page as well. As for the logo I see your wife's point that it might be hard to see the icons in the crest I designed if the logo is scaled down. Maybe it could be simplified to a logo that consists of a single note on a screen icon between the {}. Allegro is also a music term and the note suggests audio, the screen video... |
furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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@Johan H: Died. @Polybios: I like the new logo idea, namely just the font and brackets. It is simple and able to be iconographic at the same time. Cleanliness of the font was good too. Sometimes this forum is pretty brash, and I've caught my share. But you gotta realize people aren't out to hurt you; if anybody around here has malicious intentions they get run off by the regulars. It is that very attitude that makes the community what it is. I've been meaning to do several of the things mentioned for some time, and thanks for bringing it to mind. |
SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I've been feeling like bikeshedding some logos... {"name":"608434","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/a\/5a87b4264748f50cc79c6f00a022cc79.png","w":614,"h":209,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/a\/5a87b4264748f50cc79c6f00a022cc79"} "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18 |
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