|
This thread is locked; no one can reply to it. |
1
2
|
His Face All Red |
Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
|
Evert said: Yeah it did. First reading was "huh? Ok." I think that's one of the key features that makes the difference between art and craftsmanship. As an artist, you try to create a tight web of associations and symbolism, mostly based on intuition. Often, the associations all run into dead ends quickly, and the resulting work is rather shallow; after a while, you've had enough of it and starting to notice the faults and errors more than its artistic content. However, sometimes a magical thing happens: the associations and symbols and cross-links and connections you've made reach "critical mass", and open up a self-fuelled cascade of perspectives and thoughts; they start leading their own life, and even the artist stands amazed at the ideas it provokes. The artist (not even Picasso himself) doesn't control this process, and doesn't plan everything you see in a work; what makes a good artist is not excellent craftsmanship (although that is pretty much a requirement), it's not being able to plan a work in great detail and execute that plan meticulously: it's being able to lay down the groundwork on which a fascinating, magical thing can unravel. But then, "writing about music is like dancing about architecture", so writing about this is time wasted (guilty as charged). Some people have that sense that is tickled by good art, others don't. Neither is better, although there are idiot who pretend to have it while they don't, forcing themselves to "enjoy" lengthy plays without any artistic value, or listen to "modern" music (the kind that used to be avant-garde 50 years ago) and pretend to like it, then go on writing long essays about how the particular work is about The Economy, The Universe, Quantum Mechanics, Religion, Mankind As A Whole, or whatever they think art should be about, or worse, they fill column after column with meaningless babbling about the technical skills involved, mainly focusing on the things that go wrong. --- |
Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
|
Jeff Bernard said: The Russian sleep experiment is the best short story I've ever read
I did not enjoy it. It read too much like a low budget horror film; A lot of pointless gore and suspension without much point. My favorite short story (and I'm not well-read in the short story department) is The Last Question (by Issac Asimov), it does not fit with the theme of this thread at all, but I like it anyway ---- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
|
Tobias Dammers said: As an artist, you try to create a tight web of associations and symbolism, mostly based on intuition. Often, the associations all run into dead ends quickly, and the resulting work is rather shallow; after a while, you've had enough of it and starting to notice the faults and errors more than its artistic content. However, sometimes a magical thing happens: the associations and symbols and cross-links and connections you've made reach "critical mass", and open up a self-fuelled cascade of perspectives and thoughts; they start leading their own life, and even the artist stands amazed at the ideas it provokes. The artist (not even Picasso himself) doesn't control this process, and doesn't plan everything you see in a work; what makes a good artist is not excellent craftsmanship (although that is pretty much a requirement), it's not being able to plan a work in great detail and execute that plan meticulously: it's being able to lay down the groundwork on which a fascinating, magical thing can unravel.
Nicely put. |
BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
|
Matthew Leverton said: The horror comes from the realization that you just wasted time reading the thing. I concur. |
Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
|
Evert said:
Nicely put. After reading "The Discovery Of Heaven" (or rather, the original "De ontdekking van de hemel"), and not knowing anything about Mulisch except that he was supposed to be an important writer, I spent quite some time wondering whether he was being sarcastic, and mocking the whole Christianity thing, or whether he was actually being serious. The I figured, if a lover of good black sarcasm like me can't figure it out, then it's either a failed attempt at sarcasm, or a failed attempt at a cohesive world view. I then decided I didn't like the book much. --- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
|
Tobias Dammers said: After reading "The Discovery Of Heaven" (or rather, the original "De ontdekking van de hemel") Funny. That's the book I was thinking of when I said that. |
Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
|
Well, I think given someone has read exactly one book by Mulisch in the past few years, the chances of that book being "The Discovery..." are rather high I'd say - after all, among his books, this is probably the one that got the most international attention. --- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
|
Tobias Dammers said: among his books, this is probably the one that got the most international attention. Probably. De Aanslag is probably a close second (and very different, dealing directly with WWII). Quote: Maybe the Dutch literature still has to recover from those centuries of deep and thorough Calvinism, which for some reason held the country back until long after WWII (and to a certain extent continues to do so). I don't think it's just Dutch literature that suffers under centuries of Calvinism. Quote: Maybe I just never experienced in person the thing he's mocking in that book.
I don't think he's mocking anything. I think he's dead serious. |
Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
|
Evert said: I don't think he's mocking anything. I think he's dead serious. You think he's dead serious about angels referring to God as "the boss", and meticulously monitoring and manipulating peoples' lives to execute the will of an otherwise omnipotent God? I find that hard to believe. Quote: What Mulisch likes to do (in works like De Ontdekking van de Hemel but also De Procedure) is to juxtapose science and religion and, through layers of symbolism and metafore, show that they're looking at the same thing in the end (in De Procedure by drawing a parallel between the creation of a Golem and making synthetic life).
...all of which is of course ultimate and utter bullshit, excusez le mot, because science and religion are not opposites. There are things we can observe, there is basic logic, and there's Ockham's Razor; these three are enough to bootstrap Science as a whole. Refusing to accept Science and scientific methodology means you don't accept one of: Aaaanyway... long story short, I don't like Mulisch, FSM bless his soul. --- |
Evert
Member #794
November 2000
|
Tobias Dammers said: You think he's dead serious about angels referring to God as "the boss", and meticulously monitoring and manipulating peoples' lives to execute the will of an otherwise omnipotent God? I find that hard to believe.
No, I meant I don't think what he writes is satire. I don't think he's mocking anything. Quote: because science and religion are not opposites
I think that's his point. Or was. |
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
|
Slartibartfast said: My favorite short story (and I'm not well-read in the short story department) is The Last Question [www.multivax.com] (by Issac Asimov), it does not fit with the theme of this thread at all, but I like it anyway
Aww, I love the author and the story too By the way I think it's some not-full version: I'm either confusing something or there was some person in the fat future that was so sad the stars are dying, that he just made a "new star now". Append: Cool thing.
|
|
1
2
|