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Unlimited Detail Technology
Stas B.
Member #9,615
March 2008

I don't understand why if when using polygon's the number of them gets infinitely big and there size gets infinitely small, you would not have the same unlimited detail he's talking about.

Yeah... Good luck rendering an infinite number of infinitely-small polygons using rasterization techniques... Also, infinitely-small polygons are simply points, from any practical point of view, not really polygons. ::)

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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Stas B. said:

small polygons are simply points, from any practical point of view

Get it?
:D

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Stas B.
Member #9,615
March 2008

@Felix: What was the point of your post? Also, if you're quoting me, at least don't omit key-words. Small polygons are simply small polygons. :-/

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Bow down before the mighty point cloud daaaata :)

Quite relieving to see that I was not the only one irritated by his pronounciation. Besides I wasn't really impressed by their grass and overall look and feel of the land in the second video. It looked awkward (for the lack of good term).

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Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003
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Stas B. said:

@Felix: What was the point of your post?

To be awesome. 8-)

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William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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@Stats B

I wasn't suggesting using inifinitely many infinitely small polygons. I was just trying to say that I don't understand why as the number of polygons increases and they get smaller the effect wouldn't be the same as having unlimited detail.

Perhaps you'd care to explain.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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The only difference I could conceive is that points would be considered as single discrete objects, whereas a very small polygon would still have several vertices.

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
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maybe eventually it makes more sense to have single points rather than minutely apart vertices....

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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It makes sense for some things (you can make some really neat liquid effects with particle systems and real-time surface generation), but to use it to represent generic 3D volumes? Hell no. As someone else pointed out, if you want actual infinite detail, just use NURBS.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Member #5,540
February 2005
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I forget which version, but somewhere OpenGL allowed circular points.

glEnable(GL_POINT_SMOOTH);
glBegin(GL_POINTS);

It might be they're using variable sized points to fill in areas with constant color.

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Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
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The video makes extraordinary claims, has little explanation of the technique, has lots of irrelevant detail and pseudo-tech talk, and is even deceptive. Did he just accidentally slip over five minutes in a long-prepared demo? Forget the tech side, the cues alone are enough to call this grade-A bullshit.

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imaxcs
Member #4,036
November 2003
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I wasn't suggesting using inifinitely many infinitely small polygons. I was just trying to say that I don't understand why as the number of polygons increases and they get smaller the effect wouldn't be the same as having unlimited detail.

It also is significant in speed-terms when comparing rasterization and other rendering techniques. At a certain polygon-count (opinions on how big this number is differs by magnitudes), it is faster to use for example raytracing, because the cost for rendering n polygons is O(n) when using rasterization, but only about O(log(n)) when using raytracing. Of course only when you use sophisticated algorithms. The problem however is the big constant cost.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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The way the point cloud concept works is like this.

Imagine a sphere which has a volume. You also have a cube that encloses the sphere with sides equal to the diameter of the sphere. Now you use the random function in C++ and find the modulus of the radius of that sphere from the origin like so:

randomX = rand()%radius;
randomY = rand()%radius;
randomZ = rand()%radius;

...if all three of these variables randomX, randomY, randomZ fall within the volume of the sphere then you plot the point in openGL (or whatever API you like). After a certain amount of time you finally get a point cloud and a probability distribution.

The point is that this it the point cloud they are talking about and this is the way you would find the volume integral of a sphere. The concept of using this could be extended to different colored points as well as using simple primitives such as cylinder, cubes, etc... to generate more complex shapes.

I think this is the easiest example I could explain here but Im sure most of you already know this. This is where Monte Carlo integration is also used for calculating integrals of any dimension.

Heres a program in Java that explains it (on the bottom).

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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The video makes extraordinary claims, has little explanation of the technique, has lots of irrelevant detail and pseudo-tech talk, and is even deceptive. Did he just accidentally slip over five minutes in a long-prepared demo? Forget the tech side, the cues alone are enough to call this grade-A bullshit.

While the website gives me sketchy vibes, the idea is interesting. Using a search algorithm to find the right voxel to render for each pixel on the screen. I really can't say whether that's possible or impossible, but it sparks my interest!

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verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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Using a search algorithm to find the right voxel to render for each pixel on the screen.

I could sort of see a hierarchy being used to determine the output of data where the hierarchy could represent and object and all its sub objects but I really dont think that is something new and it really just reeks of bullshit.

{"name":"800px-Matryoshka_Russian_politicians.jpg","src":"http:\/\/static.allegro.cc\/image\/cache\/1\/c\/1ce8eaf61ef74ebdb181ce22b0832de8.jpg","w":800,"h":369,"tn":"http:\/\/static.allegro.cc\/image\/cache\/1\/c\/1ce8eaf61ef74ebdb181ce22b0832de8"}800px-Matryoshka_Russian_politicians.jpg

A Matroshka doll. Invented in Russia a millenia ago.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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verthex said:

A Matroshka doll. Invented in Russia a millenia ago.

No, I'm pretty sure Apple just invented that for the first time last year.

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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

But some questions remain:

a) how do they manage to rotate all the points while maintaining a good frame rate?
b) how do they manage to render partially clipped objects?

I don't think the 'point cloud search' algorithm has to do with a Matroshka doll type search. I think that's it's more about searching which voxels fall within a particular X/Y/Z.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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axilmar said:

I don't think the 'point cloud search' algorithm has to do with a Matroshka doll type search.

The Matroshka dolls (think about the history of Russia) represent a hierarchy similar to the one you find in OOP. Basically imagine a horse which has organs and these organs have cells which contain molecules made of atoms consisting of neutrons, protons, electrons further breaking the hadrons into quarks and then theoretically strings on the Planck length scale. Basically the "unlimited point cloud data" would fill in these parts of the horse using some algorithm which I cannot even imagine and this would be the algorithm for more than just gaming. I'd have to say that the people who made that video are probably not smart enough to ever even understand all those different things and they might just settle for something simpler which would make a game instead.

Quote:

a) how do they manage to rotate all the points while maintaining a good frame rate?

I dont think these people will ever figure out what they think they want to do in the first place.

Quote:

b) how do they manage to render partially clipped objects?

I think thats just backface culling but thats more aesthetic and related to "dressing up" the final rendering while the theory they present is completely lacking in detail and its bullshit.

On another note this video reeks of Intelligent Design.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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It does impress me less than a MMORPG with giant maps (ala WOW)

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