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Is It Feasible To Colonize Another Planet With Today's Technology? |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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piccolo's thread has sparked a small debate and Neil Black suggested taking it to a new thread... To recap,... bamccaig said:
If piccolo is really building a spaceship I'd love to know what his budget is. AFAIK, NASA's space shuttle's cost around $1.7 billion USD. I've seen cheaper rockets designed to take men into space (albeit, none of them have launched yet AFAIK), but if you're actually planning to travel to another planet and colonize it you'll need a lot more than today's most advanced space shuttle, let alone a cheap rocket...
Neil Black said: It's completely possible, but I doubt it'll happen soon because of the costs involved.
Vanneto said: Its not completely possible. Its not even remotely possible yet. Its more complicated then putting a man/men or women in a spaceship and launching them to another planet. There are factors such as housing, solar radiation, psychological stress, etc. to consider. Even with the money, its far from "completely" possible.
Neil Black said: It could be done with current technology. It will be much cheaper, easier, and safer with future technology, but that doesn't rule out our current technology. We can debate this if you like, but this really isn't the thread for it.
Edgar Reynaldo said:
- Vanneto -
Vanneto said: The moon cannot be compared to Mars. Mars is farther away then the moon, plus, if people go to mars, they would be there for some time, not just get there go back. Its presents a very difficult challenge.
Jonatan Hedborg said:
Quote: Is building a station on the moon or mars such a stretch? A station, maybe not... But colonization? yes.
Neil Black said:
Quote: Its presents a very difficult challenge. But not an impossible challenge. If you really want to debate this then make a new thread for it. Personally I'm on the fence. It might be feasible with today's technology, but I'd say it's a stretch... There are a lot of known challenges to overcome and a lot more that we haven't even thought of yet. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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OK, I see some problems in flying a manned spacecraft to mars. 1. Exposure to cosmic rays and other forms of radiations. Sure, you could ignore all these and risk the lives of humans just to get someone to Mars. If that is the case, theoretically, it is possible to send a manned mission to mars. But practically, I don't see it happening in the near future. In capitalist America bank robs you. |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Vanneto said: Exposure to cosmic rays and other forms of radiations.
IIRC, the space shuttle is somewhat shielded from cosmic radiation. Vanneto said: Psychological stress - being away from Earth, living in such a tight room with other people Well currently humans do spend long periods of time in small spaces... Submarine missions are often 6 months at a time, IIRC, and I think astronauts in space stations spend 6 months or more as well... Albeit, a trip to mars would probably take years... Vanneto said: No advanced medical facilities. In theory you could send enough supplies with them as well medical personnel. If they were going to actually survive on mars they would need means to sustain themselves so you would have to send everything... Means for oxygen, food, energy, etc... Vanneto said: Problem of being in the spacecraft for too long without gravity. Gravity can be simulated with centrifugal force (i.e. the inside of the shuttle would rotate, pushing you against the outside walls -- which would be the "floor"). -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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1. This is an issue even if you fly to Moon and it can be solved. [My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online] |
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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Quote: Problem of being in the spacecraft for too long without gravity. I read somewhere that everything they ever studied in Skylab, Mir and ISS is how this and that works in non-gravity environment. One would think, with those spent billions, all problems would be solved by now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Thanks for making this thread. EDIT: Sorry for the book. END EDIT: Quote: Personally I'm on the fence. It might be feasible with today's technology, but I'd say it's a stretch... The attempt would face many challenges. The first challenge would be getting someone to actually attempt it. There aren't many governments with the resources to fund a project like this, and it's possible that no one government could fund it. Convincing a nation or a group of nations to take on this project would be the first step. But speaking purely of whether or not we're capable of colonizing another world, let's look at the possibilities. Earth Colony: Orbital Colony: Lunar Colony: Martian Colony: Further Colonies: Of course, selecting a site isn't the only thing. We must also build a ship to take the colonists and their supplies and materials to the site. For my purposes I will briefly discuss the needs for a colony that is at least as far as Mars. The ship would have to carry enough colonists for a stable gene pool. I'm not sure how many people this would be, but it would probably be several hundred at least. The ship must carry enough supplies to keep them alive, and enough materials for them to build a colony on the site. It would basically need to be an Orbital Colony itself to sustain the population while the surface colony was built. Before we can design the ship we need to know who is going to be on it, not specifically who but at lest how many people and what specific equipment and supplies they will need. Specialists such as doctors, engineers, technicians, farmers, ecologists, and even simple laborers will all be vital to the project. Their needs must all be accounted for. All of this can be accomplished with the technology we have today, but the cost would be astronomical. Now I will respond to all the pots that happened while I wrote this long-ass post. Vanneto said: 1. Exposure to cosmic rays and other forms of radiations. This problem has in fact been solved already. Vanneto said: 2. Psychological stress - being away from Earth, living in such a tight room with other people For an actual colony, and not just an exploration mission, there would need to be at least hundreds of people sent to create a stable gene pool. There wouldn't be much elbow room, though, so thorough psychological examinations of the participants would be necessary to weed out potential problems. OICW said: That is a problem unless you put them asleep Can that be done currently? I think there are still issues with waking the people back up. Vanneto said: 3. No advanced medical facilities. A colony would have to take fairly advanced medical equipment with them. Remember, we aren't going to be sending colonists on a space shuttle, more like a large, mobile space station. Vanneto said: 4. Problem of being in the spacecraft for too long without gravity. Daily exercise can help with that. People have spent months in space and managed to recover, although they were weak when first returning to Earth. Also, Martian gravity is slightly lower, so the weakness would not effect them as much there. But that is a major problem. bamccaig said: Gravity can be simulated with centripetal force The ship would have to be nearly a mile in diameter or the rotation would cause constant motion sickness. While the ship might end up being this large, rotating such a mass would be very cost-prohibitive.
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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The discussion is useless without qualifications. What's the purpose of doing this? Just to do it? If so, then of course the answer is yes. If you want to start a profitable and sustainable colony on the moon or Mars, then no. The colony would be completely dependent on Earth's resources. |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Quote: If you want to start a profitable and sustainable colony on the moon or Mars, then no. The colony would be completely dependent on Earth's resources. For a while it would be dependent. And a truly self-sustaining colony is probably beyond our ability now. But we could make one that could last for several years on its own while waiting for the next supply ship from Earth.
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Matt Smith
Member #783
November 2000
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It could be done with today's technology, but it will be much cheaper when robots are sufficiently advanced to do all the pathfinding and basic building work. |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Quote: It could be done with today's technology, but it will be much cheaper when robots are sufficiently advanced to do all the pathfinding and basic building work. I agree. It will be probably be much easier in the future. But having a colony out there, even if only as far as the moon, would provide an incentive to produce the technology that will make it easier, meaning we would reach that stage faster than if we simply sit on Earth and wait until it will be a piece of cake.
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Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Quote: Before we can design the ship
If we need to design a new ship to accomplish this then in fact we do not have the technology to colonize another planet. Of course, I'm being a smart-ass by nitpicking on the definition of "Today's Technology". Perhaps we should make that into "Had we started working on it right now, could we colonize another planet within n years?" Possibly adding "Assuming an unlimited budget." Also, do we get an unlimited budget for such an imaginary project? Or is financial viability a consideration as well? ---- |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Quote: Or is financial viability a consideration as well? Financial viability is one of the major stumbling blocks for such a project, so it should be considered. But the main discussion is about whether we could do it, not whether we will, so for the purpose of discussing our ability to do it we should consider our budget nearly unlimited. The project would be impossible if the world economy collapsed halfway through because all our money was being sent to Mars, so our budget is limited to the maximum that all countries combined could commit to the project while still maintain their economies. A real world budget would be much lower, with probably just the U.S. and a few other nations contributing. Quote: If we need to design a new ship to accomplish this then in fact we do not have the technology to colonize another planet. I think the discussion is whether we have the technology to build such a ship and the colony itself. The whole thread would be a moot point if we already had such things.
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Neil Black said: The ship would have to be nearly a mile in diameter or the rotation would cause constant motion sickness. While the ship might end up being this large, rotating such a mass would be very cost-prohibitive. AFAIK, nausea is caused more by free-fall (aka null-g, aka space w/out gravity) than by spinning anything. Motion sickness is caused by a disagreement between visually and kinesthetically perceived motion (such as reading in a car, when by looking at your book you are causing visually perceived motion to be nil, but you can still feel the bumps on the road). This would not be present in a spinning spaceship because the only kinesthetic perception would be gravity-like outward pressure, and there is no obligation to show people the outside. -- |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Quote: This would not be present in a spinning spaceship because the only kinesthetic perception would be gravity-like outward pressure, and there is no obligation to show people the outside. With a smaller craft the spin would have to be much faster to maintain a reasonable amount of pseudo-gravity. The speed of this spin would cause the disagreement between visually and kinesthetically perceived motion
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Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Quote: I think the discussion is whether we have the technology to build such a ship and the colony itself. The whole thread would be a moot point if we already had such things. That's why I said I was just being a smart-ass, and that perhaps we should consider it more of a "Can it be done in n years?" or "Had we started it x years ago could we accomplish it y years from now?" (where n,x,y are relatively small numbers) Having read "Red Mars" I'd say we probably aren't too far off, but probably not close enough either ---- |
nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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Like Matthew said, this discussion is pointless without qualification. If for example the US decided to switch all military spending to colonization spending we could fast track the Ares V and start launching 150+ ton payloads into orbit on a monthly basis. A year of that and you could put some significant hardware and infrastructure on Mars ready for the pathfinders (first explorers) to use. Likewise, the Russians could start building and flying Energia's and do the same thing. Using todays technology we could build a pusher-plate Orion type rocket and fly to Jupiter/Saturn in a couple of months, Mars in a couple of weeks. Somebody just has to be willing to pay for it. |
piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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Quote:
Quote: I have plans for a gravity unit in my book that uses that same concept. The key is the angel. Another key is the gyroscope. we currently have the technology to do every thing but the indevisal components are scattered. we need to put them together to farm the units we need. wow |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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nonnus29 said: Using todays technology we could build a pusher-plate Orion type rocket and fly to Jupiter/Saturn in a couple of months, Mars in a couple of weeks. Getting to another planet is one thing. Sustaining ourselves there is another thing. I'm curious if we could actually recycle chemicals efficiently enough to provide ourselves with an unlimited amount of oxygen, food, water, and energy/fuel. With our current technology could we theoretically survive in space without Earth? With our current technology could be practically survive in space without Earth? I remember watching a special on one of the discovery-like channels where they said that it wasn't practical yet. Theoretically, we are close, but in practical terms we still have a long way to go. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Quote: With our current technology could we theoretically survive in space without Earth? With our current technology could be practically survive in space without Earth? Mars does have free carbon dioxide in its atmosphere. this could be sued with photosynthesizing plants to create more oxygen. I'm not sure if converting carbon dioxide to oxygen can currently be done through artificial processes.
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GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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Oh, WOW! The first few posts in this thread reminded me of an old DOS game called Moonbase. I haven't played the game in probably over 15 years. It was about developing a base, searching for materials and becoming financially independent of Earth at some point (among other things).
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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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someone else mentioned this earlier...the book "Red Mars" by Kim Stanley Robinson gives in my opinion a good impression of the technology needed to colonize Mars. Neil Black said: With a smaller craft the spin would have to be much faster to maintain a reasonable amount of pseudo-gravity. The speed of this spin would cause the disagreement between visually and kinesthetically perceived motion. The only motion our bodies kinesthetically perceive is acceleration. This we feel as force pushing us opposite the direction of acceleration. When the spaceship starts turning, you would feel some force opposite the direction of angular acceleration, but thereafter you would feel only the centrifugal mock gravity. Because we feel this all the time, it will not trigger motion sickness, and visually perceived motion would be nil (assuming you are motionless relative to the spaceship). This is the same force we feel when we are standing still on Earth. What's the problem? -- |
Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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I'm not sure how it works exactly, but i think it has something to do with the coriolis effect
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FrankyR
Member #243
April 2000
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I second (or third) the book Red Mars. It uses 'magic' technology in a few places, but overal its a very good read. I think its possible to get people onto Mars right now but the costs (money and risk to human life) are so high no one will. Making it sustainable is something else entirely. |
alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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From my knowledge, the Coriolis effect is weak enough that it will be overridden everywhere except very near the center by centrifugal force. -- |
Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007
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If there was a spinning module in the ship for gravity, I think this organ would let us know we are dizzy... But I don't know if this applies in space where there is no gravity. In capitalist America bank robs you. |
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