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Reasons to hate Java
FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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As a research for university i'm looking for some reasons to hate java; post freely.

P.S. Please don't waste your time posting about how good Java is, this is NOT a language war and i'm not trying to prove to the world that Java sucks :P

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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1) You need to install proprietary software before you can use it.

Isn't that about the only solid reason? :-/

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Crazy Photon
Member #2,588
July 2002
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Java is not open source (EDIT: depending on your point of view, this may not be necessarily a bad thing)

-----
Resistance is NEVER futile...

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

1) You need to install proprietary software before you can use it.

Install, yes. Propertiary no

Quote:

Isn't that about the only solid reason?

Well, people hate things for various reasons. Some are just fanboys, some don't know about the subject and/or have prejudices.

Some might hate it because it runs in a VM but usually those people just don't know how far has Java developed from the 1.0/1.1 to 1.5. Speed difference is around 100x or more on average case. Usually those people also don't know what Java is good for.

Some might hate Java just because it has "J" in it's name :P

[edit]

Quote:

Java is not open source (EDIT: depending on your point of view, this may not be necessarily a bad thing)

It is not OSS in it's general meaning but you can download the source, compile and modify it yourself if you want to. I don't think you can fork from the original Java or use their code in your own projects though.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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It lies to you. "Write once run anywhere" my achin' ass...

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Jonny Cook
Member #4,055
November 2003

Umm... I don't like coffee... :-/

[edit]
I'm sorry, sometimes I feel compelled to reply to threads even if I don't have anything constructive to say.

The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

Corelian
Member #3,376
March 2003
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Well, this is not directly a language issue, but I absolutely hate the java way of using braces. E.g.

void method(bool foo){
    while(foo){
        // Do many lines of nasty stuff
    }
}

instead of proper BSD braces style:

void method(bool foo)
{
    while(foo)
    {
        // Do many lines of nasty stuff
    }
}

It makes a hell out of finding the matching brace and a code with many levels of indentation becomes very hard to read.

All of the above is of course IMHO.

EDIT: fixed the name of the braces style

Crazy Photon
Member #2,588
July 2002
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At least you can have the IDE format the code the way you want ;)

-----
Resistance is NEVER futile...

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Quote:

nstead of proper K&R braces style:

K&R style has braces on the same line.

You're talking about the BSD style, I guess - or another style with a similar braces style...

--
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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

Install, yes. Propertiary no

Doesn't that still use software provided by Sun? :-/

Quote:

Well, people hate things for various reasons.

That's why I put emphasis on solid. "Because it runs in a VM" is not a very solid reason at all. :P

Quote:

Well, this is not directly a language issue, but I absolutely hate the java way of using braces.

That's the 'java way'? ???
I don't like that method much either, but I have seen that style used in C, C++, PHP, C#, and others many times.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Corelian
Member #3,376
March 2003
avatar

OOOPS, sorry :-[ I meaned the opposite. Wonder how I mixed them like that...

Yes, java coders often use the `K&R' style and I was refering to `BSD' or `Allman' style.

EDIT: fixed the offending post

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
avatar

Yay, flaming about Java and indentation in one thread :)

Quote:

Personally I'm K&R conventions all the way.

Are you sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style#K.26R_style

Probably one of the best reasons so far was pointed by XG. You can throw platform independence out of the window as soon as you move from PC's or servers to embedded devices. There almost everyone have their own implementation of it and quite often they are not compatible.

[edit]

Quote:

Doesn't that still use software provided by Sun?

Now that I read a bit more about I became confused. When I emerge it on Gentoo it gets compiled from source and I always thought it was OSS. It seems I was wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackdown_Java

Quote:

Blackdown Java is a port of Sun's Java virtual machine to Linux by a group of volunteers. It predates Sun's official Linux port. It still supports platforms the official version does not, including SPARC and PowerPC. Currently, Blackdown Java supports up to version 1.4.2 of the Java run-time libraries. Despite widespread confusion, Blackdown is neither Free Software nor Open Source.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
avatar

Reasons to hate Java:
- because I'm stupid

Really, there is no other reason. To cite the Tao:

Quote:

The Tao gave birth to machine language. Machine language gave birth to the assembler.

The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages.

Each language has its purpose, however humble. Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao.

But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.

If you think that the stupid thing is too harsh, then use this:
- because you don't know it
or maybe even
- because it's not what I use

but in all cases the one "hating" a language will look retarded.

--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

Sirocco
Member #88
April 2000
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Quote:

but in all cases the one "hating" a language will look retarded.

Oh no, I assure you that you can "hate" COBOL and Fortran and get away with it every time.

-->
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Main reason to hate Java: Java applications almost always appear to run slower and look/feel differently than a native application, despite what Java supporters say.

Secondary reason: If you have a hacker mentality, then the strictness of Java can get in the way. However, that is normally a good thing...

But what I really dislike the most about Java is the mentality that seems to come with it: a program with the complexity of notepad has a 24 month timeline, complete with 400 pages of documentation that covers all 15,000 methods of the reusable KeyboardKeyBackSpace class.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
avatar

My main complains:

  • Look & feel, Java applications go back to Windows 3.1 times, throwing achieved usability to the bin.

  • Encapsulation. You must put the definition inside your class declaration. That is like putting all the C++ source in the headers. It makes headers that should only show the interface painfully long.

  • Virtualization. It would be nice to have better support for virtualization, that would make programs much faster.

--
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Steve++
Member #1,816
January 2002

Quote:

But what I really dislike the most about Java is the mentality that seems to come with it: a program with the complexity of notepad has a 24 month timeline, complete with 400 pages of documentation that covers all 15,000 methods of the reusable KeyboardKeyBackSpace class.

Really? 24 month timeline? Notepad could be written in one sitting, taking no more than three pages of code. I've done a web browser in less than half a page :).

FMC: Does it have to be Java? There are plenty of ugly languages out there to pick on, like C++.

Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
avatar

- You need to download 30MB of JRE.
- The generated bytecode is not obfuscated by default, all your code can be decompiled way too easily.
- It's VERY slow.
- Class names are inconsistent (Hastable, HashMap).
- Your code for version 1.4.1 won't run in 1.4.2.

-R

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
avatar

Quote:

a program with the complexity of notepad has a 24 month timeline, complete with 400 pages of documentation that covers all 15,000 methods of the reusable KeyboardKeyBackSpace class.

I wish I would have such assingments at work. I thik I could whip up a notepad-like thingie in half a day including learning GUI. Of cource I've also seen lots of people overusing class hierarcies and other things commonly used in Java.

Btw, have any of you heard of Brazil National Health Card Project?
linky
http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/2005/sessions/general/scott_tuesday.jsp
From the time the first use case was specified to the time the information system was deployed, only four months had elapsed and 2.5 million lines of code were produced.

IIRC there were couple hundred people working on that project in parallel.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
avatar

I don't need a reason to hate Java.

Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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Storing your class system hierarchy inside a jar file/directory structure is ridiculous

Neil.
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Marcello
Member #1,860
January 2002
avatar

- You need to download 30MB of JRE.
It's more like 13MB =P
- The generated bytecode is not obfuscated by default, all your code can be decompiled way too easily.
It gives you plenty of nice shit like reflection, though. If you're so paranoid, add yguard or proguard to your build process.
- It's VERY slow.
Oh come on.
- Class names are inconsistent (Hastable, HashMap).
Hashtable is from 1.1 days, they've since redone the entire collections system and all the new things are conformant (Hashtable is kept for legacy reasons).
- Your code for version 1.4.1 won't run in 1.4.2.
Mine will. Something wrong with your code?

My main gripe with Java is probably with Swing. Although I must say, in Java 1.6, it's a heck of a lot nicer.

Marcello

kentl
Member #2,905
November 2002

Quote:

As a research for university i'm looking for some reasons to hate java; post freely.

That's stupid. I seriously hope that the "research" topic isn't set by the teacher. Also, a lot of the "drawbacks" people have listed above are plain wrong, mostly due to poor understanding so I wouldn't use anything from this thread in a "research" report.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

One of the problems with Java is that they swept a bit too much of the innate complexity of life under the carpet of the libraries.
And so now they've had to replace the carpets several times.
-- Larry Wall - http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/02/09/06/1343222.shtml?tid=145

Java started with a "clean slate", but it was a rather undersized slate, methinks.
-- Larry Wall - http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/02/09/06/1343222.shtml?tid=145

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
avatar

As someone who has never written a line of Java code, my only problem with it is when I'm using a Java-based GUI application.
Despite what Java programmers claim, every Java-based GUI or GUI frontend that I've ever used was unbearably slow. When I have the option, I'll use a native compiled version, even if that means I get an ugly Motif GUI (as I do for Maple).

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