Hi.

Just wondering if anyone has considered making a coin-op Allegro game. I'm not talking just about coin-op style - I'm talking about making the game, building the box, and putting the whole thing together.

This is something I've wanted to do for years; not so much to make any money, but more for fun.

Put an IBMPC into Arcade machine?
running Windowz?
Once i went to the game center,i saw a Tennis game(3D!)didn't know the name,
displaying a screen which like a Dreamcast playing Audio-CD!
it's HANG!

No, not windows!

I usually make my (unfinished) games for windows so that most people can run them. However, I think Linux would be ideal for this sort of project. The way I see it, windows is good for hardware compatibility, but Linux is better for almost everything else. I would specifically buy hardware made by vendors that actually give a toss about Linux.

Also, I might use something other than Allegro; maybe SDL.

I was thinking about doing a project like this. But I don't know enough about making things

You just asked who considered.

Johnny13: Could've been Virtual Tennis? Or World Tennis 2k#

I've already got someone (a cabinet maker) who will make the box if I ask him. The whole thing could get a bit expensive though.
Things I would need:
Box
- Joystick and buttons
- Electronic coin drawer with some kind of interface
- A PC with a large enough monitor (ouch).
- Piece of glass to protect big, expensive monitor
- A good lock
It will probably be expensive, but I could cut a few corners, such as using the box as the PC's case, getting the parts wholesale, using B-grade chip-board, etc...
Who know, maybe I'll break even.

- Joystick and buttons
Cheap. Since you're building it yourself. All you need is a generic Joystick and make the rest out of plastic.
- Electronic coin drawer with some kind of interface
This is where I'm lost.
- A PC with a large enough monitor (ouch).
Why a big monitor? 15 inches isn't enough for an aracde machine?
- Piece of glass to protect big, expensive monitor
.....

- A good lock
I saw those at the dollar store
It will probably be expensive, but I could cut a few corners, such as using the box as the PC's case, getting the parts wholesale, using B-grade chip-board, etc...
The reason it'd be easy is because you're coding for the hardware directly. So you know exactly what you're shooting for. Generic parts wouldn't be as bad.
How much would it cost for a Cabinet built?
And also. What OS would you run it off of? Would DOS be the choice? THat way you have a whole lot of the RAM and stuff free just for your game. And you don't need multitasking. Cause its only suppose to run your game.
I can't even boot my computer up without a keyboard. what's to be done about that?
Lemme know how much something like this'd cost.
[Edited to clean it up a little and add stuff]
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Troy ]

quote:- A PC with a large enough monitor (ouch).
Why a big monitor? 15 inches isn't enough for an aracde machine?
14 would be cheaper, but i suppose
quote:- Piece of glass to protect big, expensive monitor
.....
plexiglass so it doesn't create a danger when/if glass is broke.
quote:And also. What OS would you run it off of? Would DOS be the choice? THat way you have a whole lot of the RAM and stuff free just for your game. And you don't need multitasking. Cause its only suppose to run your game.
dos would be the way to go, or linux, no cost there
quote:I can't even boot my computer up without a keyboard. what's to be done about that?
Lemme know how much something like this'd cost.
keyboards are cheap, ya need em for dos/linux anyways, just throw it in the box somewhere's

mybe this will help...

http://cmdrtaco.net/jubei/

I was at this bar once and they had an arcade with DOOM. The game froze and when we unplugged it and replugged it in, we found out it was a pc running windows.

Anyone been to Gameworld in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, while it was still popular? They were basically a one-stop game rental place including magazine sales, merchandise, and arcades. A couple of their machines were system rigs where when you put a coin in the buttons would be activated and then about five or ten minutes later the game would reset and you'd have to insert another coin to play again.
Also, making arcade rigs is actually not uncommon, though I've never heard of anyone doing it with an Allegro game yet... that would be sorta cool but wouldn't be too impresive unless the games on it kicked some ass. Otherwise, it would be like a box with wasted components.
Plus be prepared to waste lotsa time. Arcade rigs are tough pieces of equipment to put together
--- Kris Asick (Gemini)
"He wants a Bubble Bobble machine... damned if he'll ever find one "

- A PC with a large enough monitor (ouch).

Buy a used ~21" TV and use TV-Out?

Linux is way much better that DOS for this kind of thing, especially because there are accelerated NVIDIA GPU drivers for OpenGL. So you can make a full Allegro 3D with AllegGL, run it on accelerated NVIDIA on linux, and stick it in an arcade box.

is that stable?
i saw a Card game with touch-screen showing:
"Error reading drive F"
something like that...

HanaHo Games, Inc
Umm I was planning on buying or making one of these... One. So I could play my Mame roms and get back that arcade feel. Two. so I could play my allegro games on it and make me feel like I made a arcade game..

I am gonna make one for my senior project (I probably cant do it tho...) I was gonna get an old MB with an old AMD processor, since I don’t need to run a whole OS in the background (That’s the way the arcades do it...they have like 15mHz processors!!) Then make a joystick with arcade buttons you can order. You can take the circuit boards form a regular PC joystick, and use arcade buttons. (I had a manual on how to do this a while back, but lost it :mad Then I would get a good size TV for the monitor, and use a nice video card with TV out (even tho the graphics want be as crisp on a TV) but for the coin mechanism...uhhh I'm stuck. I’ll have my girlfriend who is an ECE (Electrical and Computer Engineering) major help me with that. And there ya go...Future Wars (Download Future Wars to see what I’m talking about) in the arcade! So yes I wanted to make an Arcade with Allegro...but, all in due time.
-Insert clever quote here-

I don't think it would be that hard. The only real challenges I can think of are interfacing a coin cabinet and joysticks.

As far as operating systems go, I might have a look at freedos. Hopefully cwsdpmi plays nice with it. Thanks for all your links and advice. I didn't know there was such a big home arcade box scene, but I guess I should have known.

Anyway, as far as interfacing of joysticks and coin door goes, I think I could do it with a microcontroller kit. There's a really good one made by Atmel. It has an RS232 (i.e. standard COM port) interface. I could hook up the joysticks and the coin door to the same system. I could program the microcontroller so that every time a joystick button is pressed or released, or anytime a coin goes in, an event is sent down the RS232 line.

[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Steve++ ]

There's a site that tells you how to do all of this. HERE!

A keyboard hack or one of those IPacs could do the joystick to button interface. But everything else.... I'm lost on........ for now.

What kind of games are you planning for ? 2D or 3D ? Simple style old school like donkey kong or a shootemup like XOP ?

Here goes...
To make an authentic Arcade machine:
You need at least a 28" TV, u can get good ones today for like $30, then u open the case and mount it upwards in the box, with a mirror to reflect it forward (this is to keep the weight in the middle of the box, thus easier to transport & relieving tension and allowing you to build the box out of cheaper wood)
I'd put an ATI graphics card in it because those are the only ones who truly support TV out,
other GFX cards can sometimes switch the output to the monitor and then u'll have to connect one to set it up again
(Also ATI are cheap & still offering the best quality TV picture +no software support needed)
Both the buttons and sticks for arcade machines are very expensive, your best bet would be to go find a console arcade stick
There is a very heavy duty one for Playstation selling for £20-£80
If you get that one (or most other consoles)you don't need to worry about writing drivers, just hook it up to your parallel-port & the drivers already exist on the web. www.dpadpro.com is one place (I've used that to hook up 5 SNES gamepads or 5 PSX pads to the PC with force feedback =)
I don't really see why you should need to use Linux, u could just write the game for Dos, it boots up faster +the filesystem is more secure from breaking down (on sudden switch off etc).
U could also put everything on an El-Torito bootable CD-ROM, if u wanna spare a CD drive instead of a harddrive.
About sound, mount the speakers towards the player then u build an inexpensive (20w??) active amplifier (so it doesn't use any power while not playing any sound)
There are a lot of schematics for those floating around the web.
(If you can't find I'll happily scan one for you)
I could tell you to slash one of those cheapo set of speakers they sell at computer stores, but they do sound just awful, I can't stand that canny sound that comes out of them.
About the coin-insert, I can't think of any simple way to get one except to officially buy ($$$), or go find an old machine at a dumpster, ask around, put/look at ads in newspapers etc.

quote:You need at least a 28" TV, u can get good ones today for like $30
Yeah, used and in poor condition, maybe. New, not bloody likely. Commodore 64 bare-unit systems cost more than $30
quote:then u open the case and mount it upwards in the box, with a mirror to reflect it forward
That big a CRT you would have to, but the mirror can shift during transport so it needs to have easily accessible adjuster knobs. (One for each angle.)
quote:I'd put an ATI graphics card in it because those are the only ones who truly support TV out, other GFX cards can sometimes switch the output to the monitor and then u'll have to connect one to set it up again
High-end ASUS cards are good for TV-Out too. ATI I don't trust, I've had bad experiences with their cards.
quote:Both the buttons and sticks for arcade machines are very expensive, your best bet would be to go find a console arcade stick
Uhh... not quite. The buttons and sticks are roughly the same price but seem more expensive since they're so simple. Well, this is because they're DURABLE. They have to be. Arcade sticks and buttons take a lot more punishment than the stuff you get from the local video game establishment.
quote:There is a very heavy duty one for Playstation selling for £20-£80
Ok then... that's a rather large price range there...
quote:If you get that one (or most other consoles)you don't need to worry about writing drivers, just hook it up to your parallel-port & the drivers already exist on the web. www.dpadpro.com is one place (I've used that to hook up 5 SNES gamepads or 5 PSX pads to the PC with force feedback =)
True... but with a standard arcade-quality stick you just need to fashion a serial connector with some wiring, plug it in, and use a standard joystick driver Mind you it's not actually THAT simple to do, because you have to worry about voltages and stuff like that, but hey, authenticity over simplicity, right?
quote:I don't really see why you should need to use Linux, u could just write the game for Dos, it boots up faster +the filesystem is more secure from breaking down (on sudden switch off etc). U could also put everything on an El-Torito bootable CD-ROM, if u wanna spare a CD drive instead of a harddrive.
Linux is more stable than DOS and allows for driver loading. That TV-Out feature you mentioned? No DOS support. Those fun joysticks you wann use on your system? Well, the website link you gave currently doesn't exist so I can't comment. Or whatabout being able to write your own drivers? Much easier to do in Linux than in DOS. And you can choose from any number of filesystems in Linux, you're not limited to FAT16 like you are with DOS, though you can use it if you want to.
quote:About sound, mount the speakers towards the player then u build an inexpensive (20w??) active amplifier (so it doesn't use any power while not playing any sound)
There are a lot of schematics for those floating around the web. (If you can't find I'll happily scan one for you)
I could tell you to slash one of those cheapo set of speakers they sell at computer stores, but they do sound just awful, I can't stand that canny sound that comes out of them.
Low-end Altec Lansing speakers are actually mid-quality compared to everything else. Just add a subwoofer and they sound awesome. All for about $50. (/w subwoofer) Careful if you slash 'em though because you don't want to place an unshielded speaker too close to the monitor or the actual computer. (Well, you can place 'em close so long as they aren't pointing towards said components.)
quote:About the coin-insert, I can't think of any simple way to get one except to officially buy ($$$), or go find an old machine at a dumpster, ask around, put/look at ads in newspapers etc.
There's actually a store just a few blocks away from where I live that specializes in arcade equipment. If you live in a big city you should be able to find one somewhere, otherwise, yeah, this is tricky.
--- Kris Asick (Gemini)
"He loves being able to debate someone line for line... mostly because everyone does it to HIM so often... "

quote:Yeah, used and in poor condition, maybe. New, not bloody likely
I've bought about 6 28-32" TVs never for more than $30 (used obviously)
If used in conjunction with a direct video signal (Video, S-Video, RGB) They mostly offer better quality than new TVs with crappy digital processing. (I haven't seen a good one yet)
quote:the mirror can shift during transport so it needs to have easily accessible adjuster knobs. (One for each angle.)
If the box is properly built, the mirror will never shift. It's all about construction.
quote:High-end ASUS cards are good for TV-Out too. ATI I don't trust, I've had bad experiences with their cards.
I currently use ASUS, ATI and Matrox cards for TV output.
ASUS has crap quality and only works in windows (needs software support).
Matrox is good but also only works in windows.
ATI has an internal check to see if the video signal is connected to a TV.. if it is then it will display on both screens at the same time (this has in my experience been fool-proof)
ATI is the only card I know of, that supports almost all screen modes
up to 800x600 32bit
Supports text modes as well (ie. u will see the BIOS screens etc.)
(note: some unchained VGA modes do not work..
But which program since 1988 uses those??)
FN: I was checking that page Troy posted, it has a link to a spanish guy who tested the TV output of different cards, he also came to the conclusion that ATI had the best quality picture. (Big differences BTW)
quote:The buttons and sticks are roughly the same price but seem more expensive since they're so simple
There are sticks for consoles that are a lot cheaper, the price range for the one I was talking about meant I saw it for £20 (rebated) but the original price was £80
That one was for PSX and had 2 sticks and 16 heavy duty buttons, it don't get much cheaper than that.
(They were original arcade type sticks & buttons)
Also the logic circuits, drivers etc. already exist, so much less hassle.
The directpadpro project seems to have ceased to exist, but I have the files and schematics still somewhere. http://www.xlntfunk.com/dpadpr50.zip
There are a lot of other projects like it to link console joysticks to your PC.
quote:Linux is more stable than DOS and allows for driver loading.
Who said linux is more stable than dos??
Dos has drivers for most things for this purpose, else why would 80% of the arcade console projects on Troys link use dos? (the remaining 20% use windows)
linux cannot be powered off easily (without wrecking the filesystem), with dos u just push the power button or pull the cord.
quote:That TV-Out feature you mentioned? No DOS support.
I already explained, ATI cards do not care what you run, it will display it on the TV screen.
But you are quite right, my ASUS card needs software support (Currently only win/linux)
quote:Those fun joysticks you wann use on your system? Well, the website link you gave currently doesn't exist so I can't comment. Or whatabout being able to write your own drivers? Much easier to do in Linux than in DOS.
Well if you are more familiar with driver writing under linux, it might be, but dos is still the easiest native platform for interfacing, most of the calls can easily be done in hardware.
quote:And you can choose from any number of filesystems in Linux, you're not limited to FAT16 like you are with DOS, though you can use it if you want to.
You are not limited to fat16 in dos, u can use fat32 which is just as good as EXT2 for linux.
So for this type of project I would definitely go for dos, just because its overhead is much simpler,
remember, you're not building a workstation, you're building a dedicated system, thus, the less stuff the better.
I think dos will be more stable than linux in this case.
[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Funklord ]
[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Funklord ]

I disagree with many of Funklord statemets, but I don't have time (for now) to explain myself better.

However, I just want to point out memory management under MS-DOS is UGLY. If you really want to use DOS, try Free or Open DOS. The problem is that Allegro isn't fully tested under those platforms.

RB

quote:linux cannot be powered off easily (without wrecking the filesystem), with dos u just push the power button or pull the cord.
Use ext3 instead of ext2 (it's stable now)
Either that, or disable write caching on your hard disks (like DOS )
You have Linux drivers for most hardware these days. Finding drivers for DOS is damn near impossible.

You should't really use the harddisk for anything usefull anyway. If I was to build an arcade machine Id have the actual root filesystem on a CD or floppy disk and only have the high scores on a harddisk or some sort of NVRAM If I could afford it

ok i work at a place (WRG) which makes ATM's but use to make coin-op systems (before arcades kind of up and died), and i can tell you exactly what you will need.

first: no one uses pc monitors. It's either an LCD screen, or a tv set, most likely a tv set. The you would need a card doing tv out, and the like. I would suggestneihter using linux or windows, but DOS with the autoexec ready to run the game at startup. You dn't need a big harddrive, or a fast processor if it's only to do one game.

The expensive part wouuld be the cash dispensor (ouch), and you would need to program the cash dispensor to recognize coins being dropped in and giving the appropiratie amount of money back, as well as realizing how much was put into to give the player that extra amount of life. Not too hard. You could probably put together a quick parrallel port converter for the cash dispener (we use that in one of our PC based atm's...not too hard once you get the hang of it).

Then, you could easily do two joysticks, i think a few people made there own arcade style joysticks here, (well i know Lb1st on the GDR has, might want to ask him http://gdr.swoo.net), which is pretty much not all too expensive.

It would be neat, but arcade machines are expensive for a reason. If you wanted to market a game in a box setup like this, don't expect any takers, since arcade sales are plummeting and no one would pay the 800$ that most machines cost these days.

I've also wanted to build my own arcade cabinet for a year or so now. But not just one to run a single game that i wrote, but one to play many of the old classics(mainly through MAME). PLenty of other people have done this, just search for "arcade cabinet building" or whatever. CHeck out www.ArcadeAtHome.com, look for a link down the left side for "Cabinet pics". Many of them have links to sites talking about how they designed and built their cabinets.

Mike

Well, the OP says he only wants to do it for fun ....

Funklord: Where you live, used TV's may be cheap. In North America, they're not. Places around there love to sell them for practically the same price as new TV's of the same quality. Also, FAT32 CANNOT be used in original versions of DOS prior to Windows95. (IE: MS-DOS 6.22 or lower.) I know someone who's tried... he had to format his hard drive afterwards because he garbled his FAT. And besides, there are much better formats than FAT32 even, the only reason FAT16 and FAT32 are used exclusively in MS operating systems is primarily because you don't have to know much about computers to manipulate them, thus adding to user friendliness and compatibility with previous OSes. (At least, that's the answer MS would give you )
--- Kris Asick (Gemini)
"That is all... for now..."

How are you going to use the special 2D and 3D functions of the various video cards that you mention through DOS ? Linux has a lot of support in that area. You can make your game using OpenGL, MESA etc.

And don't forget that the Linux kernel is customizable and "hackable". You can make a special version out of it that does not have all the drivers for normal use; you can even make everything ring 0(forget about memory protection), disable paging and boot of an EPROM.

And don't forget the networking abilities of Linux : you can put head-to-head capabilities into your arcade box, or even internet connectivity for remote play very easily.

Can you do all that with DOS ? I think not.

Forget CD-ROMS in the cabinet. Try one of these CF adapters.

$12 each, or $6 in bulk

You can get old machines cheap s/h from arcade operators. Just rip out the boards and install a PC MB instead. This is probably much cheaper than buying the monitor, coinslot etc. separately.

achil:
I think the question here is, will it take 5 minutes to get the arcade system up and running with dos or 5 days with linux?
It all depends on if you need all the extra hardware capabilities for 3d.
Otherwise I don't see any other problems involved in using DOS.
Networking can easily be accomplished with IPX.

Unfortunately I don't know CRAP about Linux.'Cept
All I know is that its free...
Its the said to be the best OS(Matter of Opinion.. But lets not argue.)
There are too many different version that are suppose to be "Free" that somehow there's an order button and a broken download now button.
Its "easy" to manipulate.
All these good qualities and all... but I don't even know how to install it without screwing my computer up. (Yes its happened)
Heh I think I'd best stick with DOS. And shouldn't that choice be up to the programmer desiging the game? I mean an opinion is one thing but using brute force(aka nagging) is another.

I will soon start using Linux as a desktop... (currently only on my firewall)
It is wonderful work, but somewhat overkill for a "dedicated" project like this
Linux and other UNIXes are usually very highly focused on networking.
Which I at least find annoying especially if the computer is not even connected to a network.
Each time I wanna do something new on my firewall, I have to start reading faq/man page after page...
And still scratching my head I log on to #linux or #slackware on IRC
There asking people they often just tell you to RTFM!
Somehow it could be made more intuitive so it would be easier to accomplish the same exact thing as with dos if you wanted.
It's all about knowledge, if u know enough about Linux u can accomplish anything.. but to get there the path is long.
I am treading that path slowly but securely, hopefully others will also jump off the MS carousel that goes round and round, to get on a train heading for new horizons.
With that said I hope noone is annoyed with me (Looking back, I almost did sound like I was TELLING HIM WHAT OS TO USE, didn't I...) so sorry about that.

Kris Asick:
Yeah.. maybe the demand for old TVs is higher in North America, I wouldn't know.
Here, people currently throw old 28-32" TVs just to get a new widescreen telly.
(Don't ask me why, I think the new digitally processed picture in them sucks bad)
The DSPs aren't even powerful enough to process all the data so they use dithering combined with like 320x200 16bit sampling.
+no picture smoothing across frames which even mature video-in cards offer.
I got a Philips bad-ass widescreen TV for $1000 and the quality is a lot worse than my old one from 1987.
Have you tried buying them from people, not second hand shops? (they rip u off!!)

Funklord: People sometimes sell them at really good prices, but not always, and you have to be careful when buying them from misc. people because you can almost be sure they're gettin' rid of their set for a reason.
Oh yeah, and don't buy an incredibly large TV unless you have one or both of these things on your mind:

• Playing high-end video games.

• Connecting to an HDTV network.

Otherwise yeah, the quality does degrade because you're taking a rather low-resolution image and scalling it up to really large sizes.
Personally, since I don't have any really big purchases in mind in the future, I'm gonna save up for a $10,000 - $15,000 plasma TV. (Image quality, eat your heart out I know, it's gonna be a lonnnnnnnnnng while before I can afford one, but hey, when you want something good you might as well go all the way, right?
Besides, every January where I live the only place in town that sells them cuts their prices in half!
Oh yeah, this topic's about arcade systems, right? Umm... uh... I like pie... and pi... and umm... coin slots rule!... umm... ok, I think I'll be walking at a fast pace out that door now...
Runs out the door, gets in a car and drives off.
--- Kris Asick (Gemini)
"He wants a plasma TV sooooooooo bad..."

That is why I asked earlier what types of games are you after. It all depends on what you are aiming at.

If you don't want to expand your coin-op game developing activities in the future, then DOS is fine. But if some day you want more capabilities, then Linux is the only way to go, in my opinion.

I wish there was a simple O/S, like DOS, but fully 32-bit, with no memory protection, and with good driver hardware support, a reasonable driver model...for these types of tasks (coin-ops, etc), running on commodity hardware (PC)....maybe there is. I don't know.

Hey I found a guy at the local Arcade that said he'll give me a free cabinet if I can get the game done.... I'm going to work my hardest to get it done now!

Funklord> Linux really isn't network centered. I can run linux on any computer with no network connection, and i ususally end up with less problems or headaches..

Troy: u lucky b***ard!! =) I wish I didn't live in this boring country where arcades seem to be a rarity. (Sweden)
Since I read this post I actually brought home my old p200 with an ATI TV I/O card and an old 32" stereo TV with great sharp picture and have been looking for an empty box.. with no luck, the closest place I've found one, is UK.
(Can't be bothered to build the whole cabinet myself)
I thought it could double up as a dedicated frequency analyzer as well...
Thomas Fjellstrom: That is how I feel at least, linux has a lot of network functionality by default.
u compile the stuff into the kernel, but in dos it's more like modules only.
Of course u can tweak it into anything u want.. so why not. (but takes time)

quote:
I wish I didn't live in this boring country where arcades seem to be a rarity. (Sweden)

Yea I know. I didn't manage to find a decent arcade everywhere in Stockholm. Ynd your slot machines suck, too!
I just happen to live in such a small town that nearest arcade machine is 7km away, in a restaurant at the crossing of two main roads.
But slot machines are everywhere! bars, train stations, gas stations, supermarkets, cafés, kiosks, night clubs, nowhere to go without hearing the double-or-nothing-tune.
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: jhuuskon ]

[edit] i thought this UBB system was supposed to prevent accidental double posting..

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: jhuuskon ]

Arcades are slowly dying...the wide adoption of consoles, the huge jump in console and PC technology (makes arcade games look dated), the repetitive arcade gameplay cliches (shoot-em-ups, driving games, fighting games), the ever increasing costs of operating consoles with custom controls (bikes/motorcycles/ski/whatever), the death of the PCB have lead to the death of the arcade, at least here in Europe.

I was trying out connecting that old 28" stereo TV I had in the attic..
Seems it is now broken (burglars, moisture.. who knows why)
Anyone good at TV repairs?
the picture is just black all the time.. the OSD works though and the picture syncs, I recon it could be a bad solder somewhere???
I just need it for direct signal video-in capabilities
The tuner can go &%#¤ itself
I've tried RGB/S-Video/Video all giving the same results.
Also it seems to have a lot of cards inside, that look like modular addons, maybe one of them not soldered on properly hmm...

Um Achil

Isn't that kinda why you want to make games? I know that's the reason I do. I want to bring a different flavor to the gaming industry. I mean people keep saying things like "Its been done." and stuff like that. But things like Silent Scope come out. Sure its nothing new but its quite different cause you have that lil TV inside the scope.

When I say repetitive, I mean that each game looks 90% like the next one. There is not much diversity in the arcades any more, but occasionally there are games that break new ground or offer a refreshed and highly polished experience(especially consoles with custom controls).